[kingpole]

Follow the directions on the bottle of supplements you are taking. They are there for a reason. Best to start out with the lowest posible dose to see how the supplement works. Keep in mind that natural supplements can interfere with medications and if you are taking medications you should consult your doctor before adding supplemnts to your regime.

Now in my opinion and it is biased, natural supplrments are the way to go. Drugs have far more un wanted sise effects than natural supplements. But even natarual supplements can be over done. Example Korean Genseng can raise blood pressure in some individuals in low doses. In high dose gensing can lower blood pressure. This quasi fact is still being researched it is best to stay clear of genseng if your are prone to anxiety or have hypertension.

If you are getting real good strong erection there is no need to supplrment excessively the supplements listed in the 90 day program should be all you need for healthy maintenance of woodies and other body systems.

Tarrine is great for lowering blood pressure for two types of hypertension, Essential and if your like me your hypertension is caused from a bad reaction from taking a cephaosporin (antibiotic) But even taurine can be easily overdosed on. If you over 40 it should be taken in the amount of 500-1000mg per day. Taurine also helps stop muscle wasting as one ages.

To much creatine can mess up your kidneys no one should take more than 2 grams per day i dont care what the body builder mags tell you! I think creatine can cause hypertension.

Ginkgo in most cases lowers cholesterol and helps lower blood pressure. But if you are a bleeder stay away from ginkgo. Never take more than 300mg w/o the assistance of a doctor to monitor the doses. For alzhiemers and senile demetia the dose is 500mg this has to monitered by a doctor that know gingko.

Arginine in high doses is not good, one should take no more the 6 grams per day. And you should cycle off of it for a couple days per week. Arginine can oxidise and become posionous to the system.

I will be adding to this thread frequently.

[PhibbysHammer]

Good info!! Thanks KP!!

[Nacho]

Regarding creatine do you have a source for your info? The studies I have seen have not shown ill effects from long term (multiple year) doses of much higher levels than you're suggesting.

I'm taking 5g a day.

[PhibbysHammer]

Though this is KP's thread , I thought I'd show you how readily available sources are which describe in detail creatine's adverse effects on the body. There are far too many to copy and paste but I'm sure you know how to google.

CHFpatients.com - Routine Blood Testing

Bodybuilding.com - robodobro1’s BodyBlog - too much protein + Creatine = Liver damage!

Creatine-Induced Liver And Kidney Damage Is Well Documented In Several Reputable Studies.

Creatine

[Nacho]

Ummm ... at the risk of sounding like a troll ... did you read any of those links? I just read all of them (except NE medical journal) and they don't say anything remotely close to what Kingpole was suggesting.

It is a fact that people who do not have normally functioning kidneys should avoid a high protein diet and it logically follows that creatine would be similar. This does not mean a high protein diet (or creatine) causes kidney problems.

I do know how to use Google and haven't found anything showing creatine damages the kidney or liver which is why I was surprised.

What I have found is that medical experts say long term we don't know what the effects are.

There is a study of two years (I believe) showing 20g a day had no negative effects.

[PhibbysHammer]

Originally Posted by kingpole

...........................................
To much creatine can mess up your kidneys
...........................................

Nacho: "Regarding creatine do you have a source for your info? The studies I have seen have not shown ill effects from long term (multiple year) doses of much higher levels than you're suggesting.I'm taking 5g a day."

Nacho:"ummm ... at the risk of sounding like a troll ... did you read any of those links? I just read all of them (except NE medical journal) and they don't say anything remotely close to what Kingpole was suggesting.

It is a fact that people who do not have normally functioning kidneys should avoid a high protein diet and it logically follows that creatine would be similar. This does not mean a high protein diet (or creatine) causes kidney problems.

I do know how to use Google and haven't found anything showing creatine damages the kidney or liver which is why I was surprised.

What I have found is that medical experts say long term we don't know what the effects are.

There is a study of two years (I believe) showing 20g a day had no negative effects."
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________

PhibbysHammer:
I did read them and I'm sure you did not if you insist they had absolutely nothing to do with what KP said , and by your statement on liver and kidney damage. creatine can be dangerous. Now I took the time to paste some high points from most the sites but I won't do them all especially if you're going to ignore them. Keep in mind also that most studies only included Athletes who were physically training their bodies daily and there is very little data concerning average joes, except where creatine was being used for medicinal purposes. Below are those high points, take em or leave em.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________

Side effects of creatine include weight gain, muscle cramps, muscle strains and pulls, stomach upset, diarrhea, dizziness, high blood pressure, liver dysfunction, and kidney damage. The weight gain is thought to be due primarily to water retention. Rhabdomyolysis (breakdown of skeletal muscle tissue) and acute kidney failure was reported in one case involving an athlete taking over 10 grams daily of creatine for 6 weeks. Creatine should not be used by anyone who already has problems kidney function, high blood pressure, or liver disease. Taking creatine supplements may prevent the body from making its own natural stores. The long-term consequences of this are not known.
A 2001 report by the Food Safety Agency of France (AFSSA) raised questions about creatine supplements possibly putting users at greater risk for cancer, particularly if such supplements are taken for long periods of time. However, the European Commission and the Council for Responsible Nutrition in the United States both determined that AFSSA's claims are unsubstantiated and not based on any scientific evidence of a connection between creatine and cancer. All 3 organizations do agree, though, that risks of long-term use of creatine are not known at this time. Creatine


Creatinine levels versus kidney damageCreatinine levelKidney's approximate nephron loss0.6 to 1.5 mgup to 50% nephron loss possible1.6 to 4.6 mgover 50% nephron loss possible4.7 to 9.9 mgup to 75% nephron loss possibleover 10 mg90% nephron loss possible, end-stage kidney disease
CHFpatients.com - Routine Blood Testing

"OK, I just found out,…after taking too many stimulants and walking into the ER with a heart rate of 208….that my protein and creatine intake is way too high and forcing my kidneys to work harder than they are able too…Blood tests showed that..I had no idea what i was doing to my body…For those of you that may happen to read this..I caution you ..watch to make sure you are not taking too much excess protein in your diet…also creatine needs to be cycled on/ off….My blood work showed excessive levels of creatinen in my system and that w/ protein is killing my kidneys…Lets just hopes it temporary..For now I have to quite COLD Turkey ALL supllements…AND watch my normal protien intake…this is just crazy!!! Bodybuilding.com - robodobro1’s BodyBlog - too much protein + Creatine = Liver damage!


Now I did this for your benefit as well as others. I am in no way Anti Creatine or Anti supplement motivated. You decide for yourself, but I'd advise you to "actually read" and study up on it rather than ignoring the data that does exist.

[Nacho]

This is extremely odd to me because we read the exact same information and come to completely different conclusions. I see people with kidney problems that should not take creatine. You somehow come to the conclusion that creatine caused the bad kidney. The pre-existing kidney problem is what causes the kidney problem not the creatine in my opinion. What is my opinion based on? Before I started taking creatine I read study (summary) after study and they all said the same thing. Long term effect unknown. BUT since it is a naturally occuring substance and long term studies have shown high protein diets are not the cause of kidney problems (once they were suspect) it seems logical that unless you already have a kidney problem creatine does not create one.

So if you have some studies that show creatine caused the problem I would love to see it. Can creatine have side effects? Of course, everyone has different physiology. Can there be one or two people in the world who have a problem because of creatine? Of course. I asked for the source of the opinion, I asked for research. I don't need you telling me that I am ignoring the facts. What facts? Some guy went to an emergency room and a Dr told him it was creatine? Can you take too much creatine and cause a problem? Of that I have no doubt but 2g a day? I find that exceedingly difficult to believe BASED ON THE RESEARCH that has been done. There is a huge body of liturature on this subject and I would love to read the one where creatine caused kidney problems. Please prove me wrong. Here are a couple that prove me right. I am not trying to be argumentative I just am having a extremely difficult time understanding your point of view.

Effects of long-term creatine supplementation on liver and kidney functions in American college football players.

Mayhew DL, Mayhew JL, Ware JS.

Exercise Science Program, Truman State University, Kirksville, MO 63501, USA.

The purpose of this study was to determine the effect of long-term Cr supplementation on blood parameters reflecting liver and kidney function. Twenty-three members of an NCAA Division II American football team (ages = 19-24 years) with at least 2 years of strength training experience were divided into a Cr monohydrate group (CrM, n = 10) in which they voluntarily and spontaneously ingested creatine, and a control group (n = 13) in which they took no supplements. Individuals in the CrM group averaged regular daily consumption of 5 to 20 g (mean SD = 13.9 5.8 g) for 0.25 to 5.6 years (2.9 1.8 years). Venous blood analysis for serum albumin, alkaline phosphatase, alanine aminotransferase, aspartate aminotransferase, bilirubin, urea, and creatinine produced no significant differences between groups. Creatinine clearance was estimated from serum creatinine and was not significantly different between groups. Within the CrM group, correlations between all blood parameters and either daily dosage or duration of supplementation were nonsignificant. Therefore, it appears that oral supplementation with CrM has no long-term detrimental effects on kidney or liver functions in highly trained college athletes in the absence of other nutritional supplements.


Long-term oral creatine supplementation does not impair renal function in healthy athletes.

* Poortmans JR,
* Francaux M.

Chimie Physiologique, Institut Superieur d'Education Physique et de Kinesitherapie, Universite Libre de Bruxelles, Brussels, Belgium. jrpoortm@ulb.ac.be

PURPOSE: Oral creatine supplementation is widely used in sportsmen and women. Side effects have been postulated, but no thorough investigations have been conducted to support these assertions. It is important to know whether long-term oral creatine supplementation has any detrimental effects on kidney function in healthy population. METHODS: Creatinine, urea, and plasma albumin clearances have been determined in oral creatine consumers (10 months to 5 yr) and in a control group. RESULTS: There were no statistical differences between the control group and the creatine consumer group for plasma contents and urine excretion rates for creatinine, urea, and albumin. Clearance of these compounds did not differ between the two groups. Thus, glomerular filtration rate, tubular reabsorption, and glomerular membrane permeability were normal in both groups. CONCLUSIONS: Neither short-term, medium-term, nor long-term oral creatine supplements induce detrimental effects on the kidney of healthy individuals.


Long-term creatine supplementation does not significantly affect clinical markers of health in athletes.

* Kreider RB,
* Melton C,
* Rasmussen CJ,
* Greenwood M,
* Lancaster S,
* Cantler EC,
* Milnor P,
* Almada AL.

Exercise and Sport Nutrition Laboratory, Department of Human Movement Sciences and Education, The University of Memphis, Memphis, TN, USA. Richard_Kreider@baylor.edu

Creatine has been reported to be an effective ergogenic aid for athletes. However, concerns have been raised regarding the long-term safety of creatine supplementation. This study examined the effects of long-term creatine supplementation on a 69-item panel of serum, whole blood, and urinary markers of clinical health status in athletes. Over a 21-month period, 98 Division IA college football players were administered in an open label manner creatine or non-creatine containing supplements following training sessions. Subjects who ingested creatine were administered 15.75 g/day of creatine monohydrate for 5 days and an average of 5 g/day thereafter in 5-10 g/day doses. Fasting blood and 24-h urine samples were collected at 0, 1, 1.5, 4, 6, 10, 12, 17, and 21 months of training. A comprehensive quantitative clinical chemistry panel was determined on serum and whole blood samples (metabolic markers, muscle and liver enzymes, electrolytes, lipid profiles, hematological markers, and lymphocytes). In addition, urine samples were quantitatively and qualitative analyzed to assess clinical status and renal function. At the end of the study, subjects were categorized into groups that did not take creatine (n = 44) and subjects who took creatine for 0-6 months (mean 4.4 +/- 1.8 months, n = 12), 7-12 months (mean 9.3 +/- 2.0 months, n = 25), and 12-21 months (mean 19.3 +/- 2.4 months, n = 17). Baseline and the subjects' final blood and urine samples were analyzed by MANOVA and 2 x 2 repeated measures ANOVA univariate tests. MANOVA revealed no significant differences (p = 0.51) among groups in the 54-item panel of quantitative blood and urine markers assessed. Univariate analysis revealed no clinically significant interactions among groups in markers of clinical status. In addition, no apparent differences were observed among groups in the 15-item panel of qualitative urine markers. Results indicate that long-term creatine supplementation (up to 21-months) does not appear to adversely effect markers of health status in athletes undergoing intense training in comparison to athletes who do not take creatine.

[PhibbysHammer]

Medical Study:
"Side effects of creatine include weight gain, muscle cramps, muscle strains and pulls, stomach upset, diarrhea, dizziness, high blood pressure, liver dysfunction, and kidney damage."

Actual individual:
"….My blood work showed excessive levels of creatinen in my system and that w/ protein is killing my kidneys…"

Sheesh man, its like trying to tell a pot head marijuana is bad for him. Your oppinion does not trump fact. I told you, eat it up if you want, but the risk is there. Not my "OPPINION" by the way, there are facts that prove it. And if you think you exersize and work as hard as an athlete then you're in superior physical condition and should be giving all of us advice.

[Nacho]

What FACTS are you referring to?

Milk has as many possible side effects than creatine. People can die from peanut or shellfish allergies. My point is you haven't shown me a single shred of evidence that creatine CAUSES kidney problems only that people with kidney problems should not take it which I already knew. You keep talking about facts but you haven't presented a single one and worse yet your're beoming sarcastic. Why? Either you can back up what you're saying or you can't. Like I said ... show me the study where creatine caused a problem with healthy individuals.

As for the guy in the ER we have no idea what caused his problems or what doseage of creatine he was on I don't see how he helps your case at all.

[kingpole]

Creatine can cause Kidney damage becuase it raises your creatinine level. However i feel 500mg to 2 grams is good for preventing muscle wasting. And this should be cycled off say every other week or so. Waht body builders and nutritionist reccomend is way to much creatine. My creatine level rose to 4 below one is normal. This was from taking a cephalosporin imagine if your taking a cephalosporin and creatine at the same time. For me i will not ake creatine on a regular basis.

Until it is proven one way or the other caution should be considered.