[Lucas]

I agree with JonPop, that is certainly no matter to dismiss as insignificant. How can you not feel hot blood pulsating through your veins when you realise that humanity has been cheated upon? It enrages me to know that there is group of bastards sitting highly on nice comfy couches planning to enslave everyone.

[JonPop]

Yep. When I said, "This scares the hell outta me", I meant that this Outrages and pisses me off. This has gone on for so long that we are doomed my friends.
Even if enough people could be convinced to take up arms against this system, we would stand as much chance of overthrowing these people as a fart in a whirlwind.
The government owns the army, afterall and even though our service personal would be sickened by and hate to kill, fellow Americans, they would do so because they were ordered to.
I am old enough to have seen this developing. These films just put my thoughts and feelings into one pile. I am sure that somewhere in this world, there are people much smarter than me, trying to formulate a plan to rescue all of humanity from this corporate greed. God bless them. North American Union, here we come. Get ready to convert your dollars into Amaro's. JP (JMO)

[remek]

Originally Posted by JonPop

Even if enough people could be convinced to take up arms against this system, we would stand as much chance of overthrowing these people as a fart in a whirlwind.

I suppose with enough people - or enough intelligent people, I should say - the system could be changed for the better. It's happened many times before (The American Revolution is just one example of the prior system being turned upside down).

I don't think it comes down to how many people you would need to overthrow the system, but what kind of people. People with lots of money, power, and influence could no doubt overthrow the system we have before us.

[JonPop]

The trouble with that is; The people that have the money and power ARE the system.

[remek]

Very true. The good news is that lower/middle class people are becoming billionaires somewhat frequently since the Internet Age (think the Google Guys, CEO of Amazon.com Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, etc.). I suppose if enough of these guys get on top, and have the right intentions, they can make a difference.

If not, we'll have to think of the next big thing and do it ourselves

[Iguana]

I have to comment on this video. Your comments made me curious as to the powerful effect it seems to have had on everyone so I decided to check it out.
I have only had time to watch the first section on religion and I must say I would not let this video shake my faith. While presented in a theatrically convincing light, upon close examination it is a feeble attempt to undermine the beliefs of many and the basis is purely speculation and invention.

Many statements at the beginning about religions involvement in wars and the greed of it's clergy are absolutely true. There is no disputing it. But, while some elements of what is presented are without a doubt factual and well known, most are inaccurate, presumptuous, and many out rightly false. Which is ironic in light of his supposed advocacy of "truth." While my presence here at the PE Gym is not to discuss religion and philosophies, as long time student of the Bible and religious studies, I feel compelled to come to the defense of true religion and the role of Christ.

While, it's not practical or advantageous to try to entertain a response to every accusation or supposed fallacy I would like to address a few main points that were brought out and explain why I have to adamantly disagree with what is being advocated. The film likens apostate "Christianity", and not the true historical/scriptural teachings of Christ and the Bible, to pagan religions. It hinges many of its arguments on false teachings or superstitions that have crept into true teachings. - What do I mean? It should be obvious to most thinking persons that the Christianity practiced by Christendoms religions are not the Christianity taught by Christ Jesus and his followers. The teachings of Christ have indeed been contaminated with pagan religious beliefs from various parts of the earth.

Most holidays are nothing but pagan superstitions meshed with a grain of religious truth. A couple examples are Christmas and Easter. Neither on have and scriptural basis and are ripe in pagan elements. Christmas trees, holly, mistletoe, lights, and many other parts, are taken from pagan religions. Easter (Ishtar or Astares) was a fertility goddess (hence the rabbits and eggs) and has absolutely no basis in the Bible. To compare the tainted watered-down version of Christianity practice by most individuals to the pagan religions of Egypt and other lands will yield many similarities. But to compare it to the Christianity that Jesus taught his followers will produce no such likenesses. Most false religious beliefs can be traced back to ancient Babylon. Many of them infiltrated the Christian congregation early in the 4th century when Constantine's supposed conversion to Christianity allowed the acceptance of various beliefs and practices. In an effort to unite peoples of the Roman Empire, he allowed many pagan religious teachings to be "Christianized" or "cleansed" by the church thereby making it easer to win converts.

Religion in general, but especially the churches of Christendom, are very reprehensible for the false teachings, bloodshed and violence and numerous other atrocities committed in the name of God. But to suppose that because of this, the Bible is nothing more than a object book of astrology and sun worship, and that Christ didn't even exist, is not only amazing presumptions, but also ignorantly closed minded to the truth.

That being said, let's examine a few statements from the movie to the actual facts, the acts and truth about Christ and the Bible.

1. Movie: There is no historical evidence of Jesus existence apart from the Bible. No early historian mentions him. The prime focus here is on the Testimonium Flavianum, a passage found in the Antiquities of the Jews by First Century Historian Josephus Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3
The movie states "This source has been proven to be a forgery for hundreds of years."

The Truth: This statement is completely false. While it is widely recognized that the Testimonium Flavianum was embellished by Christian copyists over the years, most Josephan historians agree that the core statement containing the historicity of Jesus was very likely the work of Josephus. It has never been proven to be a forgery.

Another important fact the movie does not tell you, is that there is a second reference to Jesus, the-so-called-Christ, the brother of James at Jewish Antiquities 20.9.1. Josephus' reference to the martyrdom of James is universally accepted by critical scholars.

2. The Movie: Jesus is the "Sun god" and his birth and life are merely representations of astrology. The core support behind this part is the widespread, but inaccurate belief, that Jesus was born on Dec 25th. The Bible gives no date as to Jesus birth and most Bible scholars recognize this. The most likely time for Jesus birth was in the fall, probably around October. This knocks the wind out of the whole death and rebirth of the sun during Winter Solstice.

The 3 kings following the star Sirius was grossly inaccurate. There is no mention of 3 kings visiting Jesus in the Bible. The account says they were "magi", or magic practicing priests, not kings and there is no mention of how many there were. I found the whole astrology comparison almost comical.

The Truth: While there are several common pagan elements of this nature interwoven into the beliefs of most "Christian" religions, they are not the product of the scriptures.

There are also the claims that Jesus is a reinvention of other pagan gods, mainly Horus. This theory is believed to have originated with Gerald Massey, an English poet, born 1828, died 1927. He published primarily poems, but had an interest in Egypt. He parlayed that interest in Egypt into several books and lectures in which he set forth the proposition that Horus was in essence the first Jesus, and Jesus was a cheap imitation. The primary basis for his writing is the Egyptian Book of the Dead. This is available on-line and you can easily look it up to read it yourself. Be forewarned that forced reading of this would be an extremely efficient form of torture.

Claim #1-Horus and Jesus are born from a virgin.

Horus’s mother is Isis. Isis was married to Osiris. We do not know for what length of time, but presumably the marriage was consummated. Whether it was or wasn’t doesn’t matter though. After Osiris is killed, Isis puts him back together again (he was hacked into 14 pieces) except for his penis which was tossed in a river or a lake. Iris fashions a substitute penis for him, has sexual relations with him and here comes Horus. There is nothing virginal about that.

Claim #2-Both Horus and Jesus were born to a Mary and Joseph. (Seb)
As noted Isis is Horus’s mother’s name not Mary. In addition, Seb is not Horus’s father, Osiris is. Seb is Osiris’s father. Further, Seb is a distinct name from Joseph. Putting them side by side does not make them synonyms, and that appears to be what was done here.

Claim #3-Both were born of royal descent.
This is accurate.

Claim #4-Both births were announced by angels and witnessed by shepherds.
I can find nothing that mentions that the birth of Horus was announced by an angel or witnessed by shepherds. I have found that Horus was born in a swamp, which is a pretty unlikely place for shepherds. In addition Acharya mentions that Horus was born in a cave. Massey makes no mention of this, although he does represent that Mithra was born in a cave. The movie even went was far as to speculate that Jesus was born in a cave. Some of the references for the movie were from apocryphal writings and not from accepted canonical scripture.

Claim #5-Both were heralded by stars and angels.
There is no star that heralded Horus’s birth nor is there any angel announcing it. Archarya in a footnote in The Origins of Christianity indicates that that there are three stars named the three kings in Orion and then relates this to the birth of Jesus. When we look to the stories regarding Horus, we find no star or angel announcing his birth. To the extent that Acharya S relies upon Massey and Massey relies upon what is depicted in the panels at Luxor see (from an atheist) further regarding virgin birth and pronouncement by angels http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/carrier_luxor_inscription.htm

Claim #6-Both had later visitors (Horus-3 deities and Jesus-3 wisemen.)
There is no indication that there ever were 3 wisemen. The bible never mentions the number of wisemen, nor is there any document that reflects 3 deities at the birth of Horus. See the website referenced in Claim #5.

Claim #7-Both had murder plots against them.
There is mention that Seth did want to kill Horus, and Herod wanted to kill Jesus. so this is accurate.

Claim#8-Both came of age at 12, were baptized and their baptizers were executed.
There is no indication that Horus was preaching in a temple when he was 12. In fact, Massey indicates that Hours the child was depicted as a “weakling.” That doesn’t jive with story of Jesus preaching in the temple. Again this appears to have been a confabulation from Acharya and repeated by others.
On top of that, Jesus was not preaching in the temple at the age of 12. The account says; "46 Well, after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers and listening to them and questioning them. " He was listening rather than preaching.

Horus was never baptized in any of the Horus stories. In addition, Acharya mentions that John the Baptist is actually Anup the Baptizer. This individual is never mentioned anywhere in any Horus account. There is not even a footnote in Archaya’s on-line work The Origins of Christianity to support this. There is nothing.

Claim #9-Both had 12 disciples.
According to the Horus accounts, Horus had four semi-gods that were followers. There is some indication of 16 human followers and an unknown number of blacksmiths that went into battle with him. Horus did not have 12 disciples. Jesus reportedly did. Acharya failed to give a footnote to support this.
Massey points to a mural in the Book of Hades in which there are twelve reapers. Horus is not present in this scene. For Massey to make this connection he goes to a different scene within the same mural. In this scene there is a picture of a god whose name is the Master of Joy. Horus is never depicted although in other murals the artists do depict Horus. Had the artists ascribed 12 reapers in any relation to Horus all they had to do was put Horus at the scene. They did not.

Claim #10-Both walked on water.
Horus didn’t, or at least there is no record that I can find that he did. Massey does not maintain that Hours did. Massey uses wild conjecture to connect the story of fish man, Oannes, not Horus, to Jesus. Oannes came out of the sea during the day, and went back into the sea at night. Massey makes the two analogous because by his calculations, Jesus walked on water during the day. As to Acharya, she as usual provides nothing to substantiate this.

Claim #11-Both performed miracles.
This is true although the miracles were different in scope and nature.

Claim #12 Both exorcised demons and raised Lazarus.
The actual claim is that Horus raised Osiris from the dead and that the name Osiris morphed to Lazarus. It doesn’t matter because Horus did not bring Osiris back to life. There is no mention of this in any document regarding the story. Horus did avenge Osiris’s death, but that did not raise Osiris from the dead.

Claim #13-Both held a Sermon on the Mount; both were transfigured on a mountain, died by crucifixion along with two thieves and were buried in tombs where they paid a quick visit to Hell and then rose from the dead after 3 days time, both resurrections were witness by women, and both will supposedly reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.
These are the most damning claims if they were proven true in my opinion. Yet, I can locate none of this. No sermon, no transfiguration, certainly no crucifixion w/ two thieves, no trip to hell and no resurrection. There was an incident in which Horus was torn to pieces and Iris requested the crocodile god to fish him out of the water he was tossed into, which was done, but that’s it. I am at a loss to refute this because I can not find anything to support it.
Massey does compares a story about the Autumn Equinox related to Osiris, not Horus, as the symbolic crucifixion. There is no indication that Horus is involved in any way. There is no mention by Massey of any Sermon on the Mount. No mention or any actual crucifixion, no two thieves, no burial in a tomb. Massey does not maintain that anything of the sort occurred with Horus.

In short, of the claims outlined in this entry, I find the comparison between Horus and Jesus to consist of the following: they were of royal descent, they allegedly worked miracles and there were murder plots against them.

All in all, religion has lied to and mislead millions of people. Much of what the movie implies is true. People have a right to be angry. Is all Christianty a mock forgery out to deceive you? Hardly, the religion taught by Jesus was pure and unadulterated. A thinking person will sort through the speculation and non-sense and if honest-hearted, find the truth.


There is so much more outright popycock in this movie than I will ever have time to comment on. I would definitely take it with a grain of salt. I plan on watching the rest of it later but I don't expect much based on the ridiculous presentation in the religious section. I must say however, It is entertaining!



Some of the above statements are my own, others are copied from other sources.
Did Josephus Refer to Jesus
Stupid Evil Bastard: Ending the Myth of Horus
http://www.abcog.org/dec25.htm

[remek]

Very interesting post, Iguana. I learned something new, as always. You appear to have throughly researched the history of Christianity, yet not a big believer in the modern day version of the religion. What do you believe in/practice?

[kingpole]

Good work Iguana.

true Christianinty has long since disapeared though from being intregated by other religions. So now christianity is just a religion to most peoples.

they have a form of godliness but deny the power there of.

[JonPop]

Hey Iguana, that was quite a review. Like I said, If you can get past the part about religion....How about it, did you watch the rest of the movie?

[Dicko]

Originally Posted by JonPop

Uh...Moooo, Baaaah! Yeah, go along with the herd.

You have exposed me! In reality I'm an agent working for the new world order sent to infiltrate a penis enlargement forum to undermine alex jones conspiracy theories! Muahaha!!