Thread: LOT: Loss of Tugback Theory
- 08-09-2010 #1LOT was unable to predict gains tested a second time. Whether your LOT is high or low, what matters most is your willpower, knowledge, and consistency over long periods of time. In the end, YOU decide what your potential is.
LOT Theory (Loss of Tugback)
Can We Predict How Much a Hanger Can Gain?
Bib & others noticed that some hangers with similar routines and similar experience had substantial variances in their hanging. LOT theory attempts to explain the variances in hanging gains by identifying a potentially limiting anatomical factor: your "LOT" (loss of tugback) angle.
9 O'Clock - Your penis points completely straight out
8 O'Clock - Your penis points slightly down
7 O'Clock - Your penis has a downward angle
6 O'Clock - Your penis points completely straight down
If you find that after reading this you can't determine your LOT angle, try this:
Mirror and Palpation Tests - Determine Your LOT Angle
Data Collection & Analysis
Bib analyzed the data of a group of very experienced hangers. He came to the conclusion that the guys who started with a high exit point, or really tight ligaments seemed to gain more than guys with a low exit point, or a penis that tended to hang almost straight down. His analysis of the data implied that the biggest gainers were guys that started with a very high LOT and shifted their package down, resulting in a low LOT eventually.
Effectively, LOT theory is a way for you to try and predict your potential ligament stretch gains. Theoretically, a high LOT (your penis and package are high) has more potential for ligament gains than low LOT (your penis points straight down already). In other words, this theory suggests you wont have easy ligament stretch gains if your LOT is a low angle, and it also suggests that if your LOT is a high angle, you'll have some easy gains.
Further Tests Were Inconclusive
LOT Theory was demonstrated by the existing data, but an additional test showed LOT was unable to predict overall gains. In other words, whether your LOT is high OR low, it wont matter in the grand scheme of things. Some guys with high lot are hard gainers, and some guys with low LOT (seemingly less potential) turned out to be easy gainers. Clearly there are some other anatomical and genetic forces at work, however, this theory was unable to predict those things.
A crude demonstration of what LOT theory attempts to predict: potential suspensory ligament stretch gains. Unfortunately, the results of the first test were not replicated, leaving this as an interesting, but controversial theory.
Here's a quote from Bib on what LOT theory is:
Source: Bib's LOT Theory
Bib / Bigger:
"BIB's LOT Theory (LOSS OF TUGBACK)A few guys have written asking me about the theory. I thought it was posted here, but I cannot find it. So, I cut and pasted it.
There has been a bunch of other threads here, and at Thunders about the theory, so this is by no means the end all of the explanations. Further, I did not do a very good job of explaining it, so you are welcome to ask questions.
The shorter, tighter or higher the ligs, the higher the angle required to lose ‘tugback’ when stretching the penis and kegaling at the same time.
The shorter, tighter, or higher the ligs, the more ‘inner’ penis, and the more quick, easy gains which are possible, and possibly the more total gains which are possible as the ligs are lengthened.
The longer, looser, or lower the ligs, the less ‘inner’ penis, and the harder the gains and possibly less total gains which are possible.
The longer time spent PEing, the lower the angle at which tugback is lost due to a lengthening of the ligs. This assumes PE is performed at lower angles, at least somewhat, by all subjects.
The less time spent PEing, the higher the angle at which tugback is lost because ligs have not been stretched.
For those with shorter, tighter, or higher ligs, a lengthening of the ligs correlates with a lowering of angle of tugback loss, and an increase in penis length.
Assumption: Those with more length gains started with shorter, tighter, or higher ligs and their ligs have been lengthened through PE. It would be nice to have starting measures for tugback loss and erection angle, but I think the stats speak to this problem. I know that for myself, before PE, my tugback loss angle HAD to be extremely high. If you started with high ligs, and you have made good gains, you will probably recognize that your entire package is now lower, indicating an increase in the length of your ligs.
As concerns erection angle vs. tugback angle loss, it must be realized that other factors affect erection angle other than lig tightness such as erection strength and tunica shape.
I used Excel to create a table of data. Then, I correlated the variables in pairs. The only calculation made from the data was gains per month. The variable, “loss of tugback” is abbreviated as LOT. It is measured from 12:00 or straight up, to 6:00 or straight down.
The following is a rough analysis of the data given by the above 24 guys. With only 24 subjects, the results cannot be deemed to be conclusive, but I think it points to some definite tendencies and some rough guidelines can be produced. Hopefully, we can get some more participants to improve the reliability of the theories.
I will look at the data in three groupings and discuss the relevant correlations: Total participants, guys over and under 1.5 inches of total gains, and guys over and under 0.083 inches gained per month.
Only minor correlations can be found when looking at all participants. Apart from things that are obvious, such as total length being highly correlated with gains (0.875), there is only one relevant correlation. That is as time goes on, gains per month goes down, correlation= -0.605.
There are minor negative correlations between LOT and total length (-0.27), and LOT and gains (-0.24). This is a result of big gainers lowering the LOT as gains and therefore total length increase.
There is also a slight correlation between LOT and erect angle (0.22). The lower the angle of LOT the more lig stretch and gains. The looser ligs result is a slightly lower erection angle. This shows up in the amount of time spent PEing and erection angle with a (-0.356) correlation.
It has been obvious to me for a long time that physiology has a lot to do with gains. I think this can be examined by everyone, and especially new guys by testing the LOT and comparing to others. So, in this context, I wanted to look at two groups, high gainers and low gainers. For this analysis, I divided the two groups by the median total gain which is 1.325 inches. This gave two equal groups. The high gain group contains RB, DLD, Avocet, Dino, SWM, Goingdeep, toid, dasheming, Hobby, luv, Pinocchio, and me. The low group contains restnom, Growingup, WestLA, Long2Blong, Realpuffus, Phat, Johan, SS4, Sappy, j384, Penismith, and mike2002.
Things become somewhat clearer when looking at the data in this manner. It becomes obvious that for the high group, as LOT goes down, gains (-0.768) and total length (-0.712) go up. For the low group, there was NO correlation.
Truly interesting is the correlation between erection angle and LOT. For the high group, as LOT goes down, erection angle goes up (-.044). For the low group, as LOT goes up, erection angle goes up (.053)!!
Also, the relation to time and gains per month is clear; (-0.73) for the high group, and (-0.63) for the low group.
Gains per month:
The next step was to further group the data by dividing into two groups according to gains per month. This gives the ability to see the problem with hard gainers.
The median of the 24 subjects is 0.083inches per month. Those in the higher group are; RB, DLD, avocet, Growingup, WestLA, Long2Blong, goingdeep, toid, dasheming, Hobby, luv, and me. Those in the lower group are; retsnom, Realpuffus, Dino, SWM, Phat, Johan, SS4, Sappy, Pinocchio, j384, Penismith, and mike2002.
These groupings revealed some interesting results.
For the high group, as total length is increased, LOT is decreased (-0.75). For the low group, there is a small POSITIVE correlation (0.19). Also, for the high group, as gains go up, LOT goes down (-0.756). For the low group, as gains go up, LOT also goes UP (0.433)!
For the high group, as time goes up, LOT goes down ((-0.72). For the low group, there is again a small POSITIVE correlation (0.25).
So what does all this mean? I think the best way to examine it is to look at individuals. First, as I said before, the assumption is that big gainers started with high tight ligs. That was my situation. Looking at the big gainers, the more gains, the lower the LOT. This seems to firmly indicate a lengthening of the ligs allowing a significant portion of penis to be revealed. The biggest gainer, DLD has the lowest LOT, 6:00. RB, avocet, toid, and I are tied for 2nd at 7:00. While some of us could profit from more lig work, the majority of future gains will come from tunica stretch. We have some long ligs.
The other members of the high group, while getting good gains, probably mostly from lig stretch, still have good potential for gains in the ligs, either hanging or stretching at lower angles. Dasheming has already gained 1.75”, but has a LOT of 9. He might be a big’un some day.
Gains problems in the lower group are evident. The problems of Johan, Sappy, SS4, j384, Penismith, and mike2002 are fairly plain. They all have very low LOTs, but not much gain to show for it. Their LOTs are as low as the big gainers. To me, this indicates that they ALWAYS had a low exit point and therefore little inner penis. They did not have the opportunity to get any easy gains. Through hard work, several of them have made gains over time, probably mainly through tunica stretch. They should concentrate on working the upper angles of hang or stretch. Also, DLD twists and upward lateral stretches might be the ticket. With consistent dedicated stress, at the upper angle, they should make progress.
Retsnom, Realpuffas, Dino, SWM, Phat, and Pinocchio are a little different. They do have potential in their ligs to gain more length from lig stretch, even though some of them have already gained pretty well. But they have had to put in a tremendous amount of time and effort to get those gains, probably because of some really genetically tough collagenous tissues. Sometimes, that is just the way it is. The only thing to do is try to find ways to increase the stress, still working lower angles, and they should be able to get plenty more gains.
I had a lot of other crap I wanted to write about, but damned if I can remember what they were. Questions would be appreciated.
How to determine LOT
>For working out my LOT, am I looking for a complete loss of tugback, or just heavily reduced / weak? I would be happy to have a high LOT, and I´d say that mine must be at about 8:00 currently, but there is still a minor amount of tugback at that level. It´s small, but there. In fact, there´s a tiny amount till very far down. <
It could be two things. First, you could have a range of angles where the ligs and tunica are taking various amount of the stress. This would cause a gradual loss of tugback. Or second, you might be going by feel instead of seeing the loss of tugback. Do not judge by the flex of the PC, but rather by seeing the actual tugback.
>I´ve not done much stretching, and I´m only two weeks into my routine, so I wouldn´t expect to have a very low LOT.<
This is not correct. Some guys start out with low LOTs and some start out with high LOTs. The guys that have gained a lot and are low, probably had high LOTs to begin with. That is the theory. An LOT of 8:00 is medium.
>What´s the verdict? Does the tugback have to be gone completely?<
When the actual, visual tugback is gone completely, the ligs are taking all the stress.
While doing the LOT test, many guys have reported movement at the top base of their penis while doing the kegal. I think for most, if not all, this is the LIGAMENTS reacting to the kegal.
When you begin to see the Loss OF Tugback of the head, and you see a movement in your base, that should definitively be your LOT. That is the exact point that your PC no longer affects the outer shaft, and the energy from the PC is affecting the ligs.
I think the reason some guys are having problems finding their exact LOT, is because they are getting some head movement, because the PC is working through the ligs, and the ligs are pulling back the outer shaft slightly.
Don't make it too difficult. If the head does not pull back much, and the base is 'flexing', that is your LOT.
Let me be a little clearer. On some thread, I said that when you see a lessening of the tugback, it might be because the ligs and shaft are both taking some of the tugback from the PC. This could be valid. But if the base is flexing, the ligs, and the head is showing a slight tugback, then it is probably the tugback being transferred through the ligs to the outer shaft without the outer shaft being affected by the inner shaft. Then, your LOT would be where the tugback begins to be reduced, and the base flexes.
Does this make sense, or do I need to explain it better.
One of you technical writers need to work on this.
>So you're saying that the LOT is now the point at which you NO LONGER see the head get pulled back by the kegel, and just the base? <
As you move the angle of stretch down, and continually kegal every few seconds, the point at which you no longer see a tugback is your LOT. If you see very little tugback, but rather a flex at the base, that is probably your LOT. IOW, disregard a small tugback caused by the ligs flexing.
>I guess that puts me at 8 or closer to a 9 o'clock LOT instead of my previously reported 6 o'clock.<
That is good.
>This doesn't make sense to me. Isn't the grip that a person holds their head with while stretching out the dick (to check the LOT) a variable for whether or not they'll see a tug back up at the head? <
Only if you stretched soooo hard that the PC muscle cannot pull anything back at any angle. Or if you did not stretch hardly at all. Just pull out by the head enough to extend to about the maximum without straining too hard.
>I really hope I didn't waste all those weeks of only doing tunica stretches for nothing...<
I doubt any type of upward stretching would be a waste. If anything, you possibly raised your LOT.
>Okay. What if your LOT is 6 o'clock. Do you really think it's a waste to keep stretching downwards? Because even if the ligs are no longer able to lengthen any further, wouldn't you still be stretching something?<
I do not think it would be a complete waste, simply less efficient. If you are stretching down, and engaging the ligs, with a low LOT, and no potential for gains from lig stretch, the stress taken by the ligs will naturally detract from or eliminate the stress imposed on the inner tunica. IOW, you could possibly consistently stretch at an angle that would not give any gains from lig stretch, and yet not impact the inner tunica at all. Of course, you would still be stretching the outer tunica. Sabe?
>I also have this nagging feeling that my LOT has always been 6 o'clock. Now if you're theory is correct, then that's not possible right?<
Sure it is. You can be born that way. Many guys have naturally low LOTs.
>Isn't it just natural to lose tugback stretching straight downwards?<
Sure. For every single guy, at some point the ligs engage, and take the stress. It is the point that the ligs engage that is important.
Hope this helps, Bigger"
More hanging related threads:
I have put together a number of related hanging threads to help guide you through the process of learning about hanging. Start with hanging 101 & Blink2000's Hanging Tips. Reading through those threads will help you understand how to hang and give you some basic theories to help you start figuring out which hanging angles to use, how to reach fatigue, etc.
The hanging theory threads are mostly geared towards helping you understand where your penis currently exits your pelvis, and how to fully maximize suspensory ligament stretch gains (BTC & SD). Once you've maximized your suspensory ligament gains you can move to higher angles such as SU & OTS. Eventually, once you feel ready, or once you start to plateau with standard hanging angles (SD, SU, OTS, BTC, SD, UTL, OTL, etc), you will be ready to start using fulcrums, such as the RSDT.
Each time you change angles, remember to do maintenance hanging at your previous angle until those respective previous target tissues are cemented & heal in a permanent, elongated state. Once you reach your ultimate length goals, be sure to do some maintenance hanging to maintain your hanging gains while work on your girth gains.
Practical Hanging Advice:
Blink2000's Hanging Tips
Turkey-Neck Correcting Wrap (for SD & BTC Angles)
Why Hanging Should be Done Before Advanced Girth Work: Length First, Girth Second
Maximizing Ligament Stretch Gains & LOT Theory
Choosing Your Angle of Attack, Target the Ligs first, then Tunica
Homemade Hanger Recipes
The Captn's Wench
Tom Hubbards AFB Hanger
Hanging Device: Rice Sock Duct Tape Fulcrum (RSDT)
Last edited by blink2000; 09-12-2010 at 11:50 AM.
- 08-09-2010 #2
- Join Date
- May 2010
- Oh ... just around ...
Very crude picture and it was hard to follow at first but the "lightbulb" finally came on ... makes perfect sense now ... thanks for the illustration. I have LOW LOT - now I have a visual for the areas I need to concentrate on.Starting Stats: 7.5 x 6 ---> Current: 8.2 x 6.7 ---> Goal: 9+ x 7
"Wherever you go, there you are. Stay sexy, my friends."
- 08-09-2010 #3
I also have a 6o lot. That is your my ligs interfer with my PC muscle . I try to kegel at 6 clock the tug is not as pronounce as the other tug backs. This where I could really feel the tug back from kegeling 3 clock.12 clock.9 clock. So if you don't feel a tug back while kegeling that is your lot right??
- 08-09-2010 #4
So if you have a 6-7 o clock LOT, stretch straight down... if you have say a 9 o clock or higher LOT then stretch straight out.. got it.Starting: 4/1/10 - bpel 6.00 x 5.00 meg
Current: 4/1/12 - bpel 7.30 x 5.20 meg, bpfsl 8.10
Final Goal - bpel 7.75 x 5.75 meg
If you just read this, do 10 quick kegels
- 08-09-2010 #5
I hope you guys find the additional information helpful. I decided to just post the entire article on LOT and the added Mirror and Palpitation tests for those who have trouble determining their LOT. The original article links are available so you can see added commentary with feedback from Bib.
- 08-09-2010 #6
- Join Date
- May 2010
- Oh ... just around ...
My 6 o'clock tug is virtually non-existent - I see and feel nothing. 12 o'clock on the other hand ... when I did the testing and kegeled, it damn near pulled my cock right outta my hand it was that strong. "Damn the ligaments - full speed ahead!"Starting Stats: 7.5 x 6 ---> Current: 8.2 x 6.7 ---> Goal: 9+ x 7
"Wherever you go, there you are. Stay sexy, my friends."
- 08-09-2010 #7
I have actually been pretty rusty on this stuff. I figured out my LOT over two years ago, and I haven't looked back at the theory since then. My LOT is very high, so theoretically I have some easy gains coming. Unfortunately, even though LOT makes logical sense to me, not enough testing was done to prove the theory. Regardless, its easier to stretch ligs than tunica, so it makes the most sense to start by doing that first.
- 08-13-2010 #8
I made a big mistake on my explanation, incoming edit!
- 08-13-2010 #9
My edit is complete. I removed the mirror & palpitation tests, I think that's a subject for a different article. I also re-wrote my explanation of LOT theory; I had some false assumptions about things or an incorrect understanding.
Choosing an Angle of Attack:
Based on the collective wisdom of the veterans, many of which have great knowledge of penile anatomy, every hanger should always try & maximize ligament stretch gains before moving on to tunica work. In other words, everyone should start with low hanging angles regardless of their LOT.
- 05-05-2011 #10
ok from what i've read i have a 6:00 LOT, so does that means i should be wearing the extender facing up towards my chest?
i will wear it facing down for a couple more weeks.
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