[Iguana]

Originally Posted by remek

Great finds, Iguana! The scientific journals you referenced go along with what I've been assuming all along (yet had no scientific backing for) - the smooth muscle grows with increased pressure. This also explains why veins get bigger due to PE, and why it might be a healthy sign that the SM is growing.

Exactly! Wow! I had never thought about the increased veinage! That's another early sign newbies report.

Originally Posted by remek;

This also builds a little evidence for something I've believed in for a long time - to keep the gains coming, you have to increase the intensity as time goes on (albeit healthfully).

Another excellent point! I had never thought of this either. I think most guys pretty much keep the same intensity level when jelqing for their entire PE career. They usually just up the reps. Everyone knows to up the intensity when hanging, pumping and stretching. Why hasn't anyone suggested up the jelq levels. Or, maybe that have and I missed it. I know it's definitely not mainstream thinking.

Originally Posted by remek;

You know what would really help is if we could build a list of signs to help people know when they need to focus on one or the other. If the theory is sound, then this would be a completely new way to PE - and it would almost be akin to the importance of following the PIs.

Good idea. Might be useful to take a look at the PI list for some clues to what might be going on?

Originally Posted by remek;

Didn't you mention earlier that you think an increased BPFSL means the tunica is stretched and thus it would be a good time to focus on the SM?

Perhaps another one is increased flaccid hang. The tunica is stretched, so the penis stays in a bigger flaccid state. In this case, what would be the best to focus on?

Or what about the firmness of the penis? Have you ever noticed that sometimes the penis feels very strong and firm - almost like when a bike tire is pushed to it's complete maximum? It's almost as if the SM is trying to buldge out of the tunica. It doesn't always happen - or at least for me - rather every once in a while. Perhaps it's a sign?

YES!!! Think about it! If the tunica is tight and constricted the internal pressure will be great, resulting in a very hard erection. If the tunica is stretched out over what it is normally accustomed to and the SM is not expanding enough to take up the excess space, a softer less rigid erection would be the result. The bicycle tire illustration was perfect.

I was thinking, we start newbies out with "The Newbie Routine". Which is jelqing and stretching. It seems most newbies are jelq happy and don't stretch as much as they should. Also, notice that usually the very first change they report is an EQ improvement - filling in the SM gap?

This could explain why some guys complain of their EQ suffering at times. Maybe they are focusing too much on stretching and not on SM targeting exercises? It would be interesting to see if guys with a higher BPFSL to BPEL ratio have softer erections. Logically, you would think so. We have always attributed this to over training. Maybe it is? - over training the tunica.

Originally Posted by remek;

Perhaps another one is increased flaccid hang. The tunica is stretched, so the penis stays in a bigger flaccid state. In this case, what would be the best to focus on?

I think we push the tunica to stretch further but until we start breaking the elastic bands, it snaps right back. If the tunica elastic is exhausted and you have reached your plastic deformation stage. By this time, your flaccid hang should be pretty massive (at least in relation to what it was.) Am I way off on this one?

As far as what to focus on at this stage? I think we would have to examine our TIs (tissue indicators?, sorry! for lack of a better term.) What is our BPFSL to BPEL ratio? How is our EQ? If you are having rock hard erections at this point, I would say hit the tunica. This SHOULD mean your BPFSL to BPEL ratio is low. If your EQ is poor I would focus on SM to see if I could improve EQ and fill the BPFSL to BPEL gap.

Originally Posted by remek;

These are just some ideas. I could be going out a limb here, but feel free to scrutinize

remek, not a limb at all! Great ideas and insight!!! We should start a list of indicators and see how what we know fits. What about a poll on how BPFSL/BPEL affects EQ? Just a side note, right before I started my decon break. My BPFSL was way up. Almost 3/4" over my BPEL. AND, my EQ was starting to be really poor!

Maybe were on to something?

[remek]

Originally Posted by Iguana

Maybe were on to something?

Iguana: I really think so. What do we have now, 4 or 5 "possible" signs?

Anyone else have some ideas? It would be great to get a survey going with some questions testing for this.

[Iguana]

Editors note: This post is a brief summary of what we have come up with so far. It is a collection of posts by remek and Iguana taken from posts both previous to this one and after it.

Tissue Growth Indicators (TGIs)
Tissue Growth Indicators refer to certain observable conditions that might lend clues to what is happening in the penis pertaining to growth or the lack of growth. These points are just some ideas, and in the future it may be found that certain TGIs don't belong in a certain category (similarly some TGIs may be found in the future).

The core of this theory is that PE is about enlarging two key tissue types

Anatomy

There are two main central components involved in enlargement:

1. The Corpus Cavernosa/Corpus Spongiosum - erectile sinusoids - composed of about 50% smooth muscle and 50% collagen.
2. The tunica albuginea – a dense outer lining surrounding the erectile chambers - composed of elastin and collagen.


From through research of this topic, we have found that these tissues do not enlarge from the same mechanisms. Conventional Natural PE seems to purport a "one-size-fits-all" approach when it comes to penile exercises. Meaning, there is little advocation for targeting or isolating the differing tissue types to elicit growth from each respective tissue. Given the differing composition (tough collagen vs smooth muscle) and structure of the two focal tissues involved in PE, we are advocating a more diametric approach.

We believe that the evidence supports differing growth mechanisms therefore requiring differing stress/stimulus approaches.

Enlarging the Erectile Chambers:The evidence here points to tissue regeneration: (Growth comes from added smooth muscle tissue and cell regeneration)

It is well documented that several factors can elicit a growth response in smooth muscle cells, including, but not limited to, stretching, injury and increased blood pressure. The following are excellent articles which support this.
http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/262/5/R895
http://www.ionchannels.org/showabstract.php?pmid=10666084
http://physrev.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/81/3/999

C. Remodeling
Vascular remodeling is a physiological response to alterations in flow, pressure, and atherosclerosis. Remodeling involves changes in VSMC growth and migration as well as alterations in vessel matrix (214). Remodeling may be classified as proposed by Mulvany based on the nature of changes in vessel diameter (inward or outward) and by changes in mass (increased = hypertrophic, decreased = atrophic, no change = eutrophic) (214). As an example "eutrophic outward" remodeling would be an increase in lumen diameter without change in amount or characteristics of the vessel such as may occur with increased flow and atherosclerosis. In contrast, "hypertrophic inward" remodeling would be defined as a decrease in lumen diameter with increased wall thickness such as may occur with increased pressure. It has been best studied in resistance vessels during hypertension. During chronic hypertension, there is an increase in vessel wall thickness hypothesized to normalize wall stress. Physical forces (wall stress and cell stretch), autocrine growth mechanisms, and paracrine growth mechanisms (EC actions on VSMC) stimulated by the hypertensive environment appear causative.

Enlarging the Tunica Albuginea: The evidence here points to a restructuring of the tissue through healing processes.
It is possible some cell growth takes place but most evidence points more toward plastic deformation.

Collagen has viscous properties which allow a residual elongation after a load is applied then released. This phenomenon is known as plastic deformation. Furthermore, its elastic properties allow for recoverable deformation which is a return to its original length after stretch is applied then released. As mentioned above, elevated temperatures increase the extensibility of collagen. Therefore, when a load is applied to heated tissue then released, greater plastic deformation results (increased residual length) and thus permanent elongation of the connective tissue.9

Heat Application in Physiotherapy

Growth process stages:

A. Catalyst (Injury, Exercise, Force, etc.)
B. Inflammation, Repair, Healing,
C. Healing, Rest, Deconditioning

Call it IPR or whatever you want but this seems to be the body's natural healing cycle regardless of the tissue type involved.

Summary: According to this theory, if your tunica is not actively being stretched properly, but you are continuing to build smooth muscle, your erections will get rock hard. The added smooth muscle tissue, tightly constricted by tunica, increases the penile density and rigidity. Now, if we refocus our attention on the tunica and stretch it out, length gains occur. But, because the smooth muscle is no longer tightly constricted it flows easily into the new tunica space giving us new length. But at the same time, because it is no longer tightly condensed, we loose EQ. The erection, although longer, is now softer and much less firm. The goal now would be to refocus on SM to regain the original density and thereby cement the added length. I think if we continue to stay focused on the tunica we may gain a little more length but here is where some guys think they need a break due to poor EQ. They assume the poor EQ means they're over-training, they start decon and loose some length due to atrophy, both SM & tunica. I think if we are giving equal attention and getting results from both tissue types we avoid this situation. But, after we exhaust newbie gains, this seems very difficult to do.

Note- any number of various other factors could also cause the above observations. If this theory is correct multiple indicators should be present in either instance.

Signs SM tissue is limiting gains.

- Weak or soft Erections
The theory: According to some studies, the lower the percentage of SM in the penis, the softer the erections.

"In recent electron microscopic studies, it could be shown that, in the case of many patients, a degeneration of the cavernous smooth muscles is present as cause of the erectile dysfunction (11-13)." Therapy apparatus for the functional electromyostimulation of smooth muscle cells - US Patent 6128536

"It has been shown that decreased smooth muscle content is associated with an impaired erection." Sexology 2005

In theory, if everything else is working properly, then the percentage of the SM in the penis could be low compared to the other tissues (e.g. the tunica). That said, this sign is the hardest to interpret, as several things can affect erection strength, including overtraining, stress, an unhealthy lifestyle, and much much more.

- BPFSL is .25" or greater than BPEL
The theory: When the BPFSL is greater than the BPEL, it essentially means that the length of the penis can extend further than an erection is allowing it to. The cause of an erection is the smooth muscle, so it is probably the limiting factor here. Also, the tunica is no doubt the part of the penis that determines how far the penis can be stretched. So, with this in mind, the tunica is stretched further than an erection, so it can't be the limiting factor to BPEL gains (and the SM probably is).


- Loss of gains when combined with weaker erections, especially loss of girth.
The theory: Let's go through the motions here. If the erection is hard, then that means their is enough smooth muscle (volume wise) and it is relaxed enough to press against the tunica. This, in turn, will essentially create a suction so blood can't leave the penis.

If the erection is weak, a few things could be happening . . . but it most often means the smooth muscle is either not relaxed enough to press against the tunica (which might be caused by the smooth muscle being fatigued, constriction of the blood vessels, stress, etc) or there not being enough smooth muscle volumetrically to press against the tunica. The later is where this theory comes into play. If there is not enough smooth muscle to press against the tunica, then essentially there is a "gap," and blood can't be held in the penis efficiently. So if everything else is right - i.e. the smooth muscle isn't overtrained, the blood flow is optimal, testosterone level is good, and you're living a healthy lifestyle (physically and emotionally) - then it would suggest that you might not have enough smooth muscle to press against the tunica, creating a gap and causing the weaker erections. (The Penis as a Vascular Organ).

According to this new theory, when gains are made, two things can happen:

1. Both the tunica and the smooth muscle have to be pushed to a new limit
2. Either the tunica or the smooth muscle was already pushed to a new limit, and the other one "catches up" causing the gain

Similarly, when gains are lost, either both fall from their previous limit or just one does (either the tunica or the smooth muscle). If a loss of gains occurs in conjunction with weaker erections, then hypothetically the smooth muscle volume has decreased while the tunica has stayed the same - and thus the smooth muscle volume isn't enough to effectively expand the tunica. A loss of gains can occur in either short-term or long-term.

1. A short term loss of gains is a negative PI. It's caused by overtraining. We can assume that similar to skeletal muscle, when the smooth muscle is overtrained, it experiences fatigue and can't be pushed to the fullest - and thus can't sustain maximum erections.
2. Long term lost of gains due to taking a break or not cementing gains. If erections are weak, then presumably more tunica gains were cemented than smooth muscle gains (thus causing a gap and weaker erections).

Note: According to this theory, weak erections can get tricky real quick. If the tunica enlarges and the smooth muscle doesn't, this creates a "gap" that needs to be filled. This is where the theory gets tricky - are you experiencing weak erection because of muscle fatigue or because you need to catch your smooth muscle limit up to your tunica limit?

Further note: Perhaps a way to test this would be that if your penis is the same size when it's at its peak, then your smooth muscle didn't decrease (or become fatigued) and thus the tunica just enlarged. This might be hard to test, as if the smooth muscle can't relax enough to cut off blood from leaving the penis, then there is no way to reach the "peak."

Maybes
- Poor Veinage
The theory: The reasoning here is 2-fold.

1. Within the veins and arteries, there are also smooth muscles cells (these are slightly different than the smooth muscle cells found in the corpus chambers within the penis). If the smooth muscle is poor in the veins and arteries, then the smooth muscle in the penis is most likely poor as well.
2. Blood flows into the penis through the arteries. The arteries take the blood into spongy-like spaces called "sinusoidal spaces" which lead to an erection. Inside the spongy spaces is where the corporal smooth muscle is (the stuff were presumably trying to make bigger). When there is more blood flowing to the penis, there is more blood flowing to the smooth muscle. If not enough blood is flowing to the corporal smooth muscle, then it is most likely not being pushed to its limit. Moreover, by actually focusing on exercising the smooth muscle within the penis, you're presumably exercising the smooth muscle in the arteries, which will increase blood flow.

- Good flaccid hang - but erections are weak or soft

- Good expansion when clamping or pumping (beyond typical erect size)



-Signs Tunica is limiting gains-

- BPFSL is .25" or less than that of BPEL
The theory: As mentioned, the tunica is most likely the part of the penis that determines how far the penis can be stretched. When the BPFSL is equal to or shorter than the BPEL, then the tunica is being stretched to its limit when erect. Thus, the tunica is limiting the gains.

- Rock hard, firm erections
The theory: When the penis feels very strong and firm it's as if the smooth muscle is trying to buldge out of the tunica - almost like when a bike tire is pushed to it's complete maximum. In this case, the tunica is the bicycle tire and the air inside is the smooth muscle. Just like a bigger tire can take more air, a bigger tunica (once enlarged) can take more smooth muscle.

- Loss of gains when combined with harder erections
The theory: Again, if the erection is hard, then that means the smooth muscle is relaxed enough to press against the tunica (and essentially create a suction so blood can't leave the penis). If a loss of gains occurs, and firm erections are taking place, then the tunica fell from its previous limit.


Maybes:
- Good Veinage
The Theory: If good veinage occurs, presumably erections are hard and the smooth muscle is being pushed to its limit. . . Thus making the major limit the tunica.

- Poor expansion when clamping or pumping

Targeting the Tunica or the Smooth Muscle

Targeting the tunica: When we are stretching/hanging/or using an ADS, we are stretching both the SM and the tunica. However, it would appear that the tunica is probably taking the blunt of the stress, as it is the tissues closest to the point of origin. In other words, the tunica is on the outer layers of the penis, the smooth muscle is on the inner layers, and hanging/stretching is generated closer towards the outer layers. Meaning, the hanger is on the outside of the penis, pulling the tunica. (Physics) For girth, it's possible you can focus on the tunica with certain exercises like the O-bend/flaccid bend.

Targeting the smooth muscle: Conversely, when we are clamping/pumping/or squeezing presure from the inside, we are also providing pressure on both the SM and the tunica. However, the smooth muscle is probably taking the blunt of the stress as it is the tissue closest to the point of origin. In this case, the pressure is coming from the inside (from a rapid influx of blood flow), and directly causing smooth muscle to expand, which indirectly causes the tunica to expand.

[Benta]

And for practicality, correct me if I have misunderstood, but if the SM is the limiting factor then you want to do more SM exercises, which we are unsure about- but the general consensus seems to be that this would be mostly jelqs, and if the tunica is the limiting factor then you would want to do more stretches. This seems very logical.

Now, one thing I am still finding very mysterious is the idea of break gains and deconditioning. Based on general muscle training principles it seems like if decon breaks were taken they should be much shorter than training periods, and should only last maybe 1-2 weeks? I think in the case of overtraining decon breaks are extremely important for recovery, but in general training I'm not sure how they play in. Anyways, sorry to get off track from what is already here.

Seems to me what you have come up with is a more accurate and precise method of interpreting PIs to fine tune your training methods. When combined with Pis to measure overtraining vs undertraining, and overall health, this is good stuff man. Very well done

[remek]

Benta: There has been several discussions on the length of decon breaks. When you hit a plateau, two months in the normal suggested time (although this isn't necessarilly right).

About the limiting factor being the SM: It may or may not be. That's actually the point of the recent discussion in this thread . . . To decode a little bit of the mystery of what to "focus" on

[Benta]

I phrased my paragraph poorly, what I was trying to do was break it down a bit, to say that in the case that the SM was the limiting factor, IE the tunica was overdevelopped in proportion (indicators would be long flacid length, less veins in your erections, etc as listed) then once you saw those indicators you would focus on your SM.

Alternatively, if you saw the opposite indicators, like rock hard erections and an abundance of veins then you would focus on developing your tunica, through stretches etc.

I was just trying to sum up a bit of the brainstorming for reading ease :P

[remek]

Benta: Sorry about that. I thought you were asking a question. Now, I can see that you were summing it up. Thank You

Iguana: That is a very impressive list. I full heartedly agree with every one except this one:

Possible
- Girth is greater when flaccid than when erect

Wouldn't this mean the tunica is the limiting factor as well, as it stays the same size when soft and erect? Maybe it's a combination of both.

[Iguana]

Originally Posted by remek

Wouldn't this mean the tunica is the limiting factor as well, as it stays the same size when soft and erect? Maybe it's a combination of both.

remek, you could very well right on this. I struggled with this one and probably wasn't very clear on explaining exactly what I meant. It should read "- Girth is greater when semi-erect than when erect."

I have read many many posts from guys who (including myself) sometimes notice greater girth, at a 80% or 90% erection than when fully erect. I usually measure at least 1/8" thicker when about 90%. I always chalked it up to the tunica getting slimmer when longer effect (there is a name for this phenomenon, but it escapes me) and that could very well be the reason. There seems to be other plausible explanations. It could also be because tunica is less flexible when 100% erect. But, then, why doesn't it expand more lenght wise? One thing it does tell us that the tunica has the potential for greater lateral expansion at less than 100%.

I guess my reasoning is that if a guy has 5.5" girth when fully erect and 5.75" girth when 90% he has the potential for another 1/4" EG girth in his tunica. Then logically if the tunica can stretch another 1/4" why doesn't it when 100%? Does it loose diameter when longer? Maybe. Balloons do. But, what puzzles me is not everyone experiences this. So if this were the explanation you would think that the effect would apply to everyone? And maybe it does? Maybe not everyone observes or reports it? I guess I just reason that if the tunica has that extra potential, than maybe it's not the limiter here? Thoughts? Comments?

[remek]

Iguana: I like the logic in the explanation above. I've never experienced this phenonemon, or read much about it. When your girth is greater in the semi-erect state, is your length smaller, larger, or the same than it is when you're in erect state?

If the length is smaller, I would presume that the tunica is the same size in both states . . . meaning the tunica may still be the limiting factor.

On the other hand, if the length is the same size, then the smooth muscle is probably the limiting factor.

[remek]

Also, I had a long drive over the Thanksgiving Holiday- during which I contemplated the ideas being thrown around in this thread.

I've come to the belief that every reaction the penis gives off (or every phsyilogical response) can be interpeted in one way or another as a sign of what to focus on. I'm just not sure how. The points you and I laid out here are a good start, but I want to know more.

I'm going to look for my smooth muscle notes later this week (100 + pages). I remember thinking about this sometime last year, but I ended up getting side tracked. I'll need to refresh my memory.

In the meantime, one question that bothers me is on the topic of length and girth:

• What's the role of smooth muscle growth in relation to length growth? How about girth growth?
• What's the role of tunica growth in relation to length growth? How about girth growth?

So far, we've kind of assumed that SM growth equals girth growth, and tunica growth equals length growth. The way I see it, there's no reason to believe this assumption, and in fact SM growth has to play some type of role in length growth, and vice versa.