[Iguana]

The end of October officially marked 6 months of my Chemical PE journey. When I started this program there were probably 10-15 guys involved in one type or another, now I think there may be 2 or 3 of us left. I said I would give it at least 6 months before I drew any conclusions. I stayed the course...


So, after 6 months what is my final take on Chemical PE? Very simply - Don't waste your money.

Here's a synopsis:

Looking back at my stats, I started Chemical PE in May 2008 at 7.125" X 4.75". My last measurements a few days ago were 7.25" X 5.0".
At the surface it looks like a cool 1/4" girth gain but let me explain. At this moment, my girth fluctuates between 4.93 & 5.0". The 5.0" measurement was where I happened to be at that particular day. Tomorrow it may be less.

Before Chemical PE, my maximum measurements were as follows; length 7.375" in April of 2008 and 4.875" girth in October of 2007. My measurements have fluctuated over the years so, out of this, I only had 1/32" to 1/16" of what I would call "new girth growth", meaning I had never measured that size before. I had no new length growth. I did, however, measure a 3/16" length gain last month but was unable to hang on to it. All in all, not much to get excited about.

As I mentioned earlier, I have stayed with the chemical program consistently for 6 months. With the exception of vacation I have kept up with my exercises and injections. I took 1 week off in Aug and 2 weeks off in Oct.

As you see from my results I gained about 1/4" girth from where I started in May 2008 or 1/32" to 1/16" "new" girth growth. and no cement-able new length.

However, in all fairness to Chemical PE, I'm fairly certain my girth gains were the result of the chemicals. I have been a very active with PE for over two and a half years. I have always found girth gains hard to come by. I've jelqed, clamped, squeezed and pumped with very little results. Most of my girth gains came from jelqing in the first two months of my PE career. For me to have gained even 1/8" girth with virtually no girth exercises is pretty amazing in itself.

Conclusion: Chemical PE is not the Holy Grail of PE. At least not for me.

I think IGF-1 lR3 does hold promise for real girth gains. I think the problem was the product most of us were buying is weak or possibly even bunk. The girth gains may have came from the PGE-1. I think access to real IGF-1 LR3 could be very difficult and extremely expensive. I will continue to look. I will not buy IGF-1 from my previous supplier and will probably only purchase it again if I can find an inside source to the real thing.

At this point I have not made my mind up as to whether to quit chemical PE completely. I may continue to acquire PGE-1. I think it might be a good supplement to a solid manual routine, but alone I have serious doubts. Either way, I have a pretty substantial stash of chemicals left so at the very least, I plan on using them up. I'll keep you updated if anything miraculous happens.

[JonPop]

Wow, Iguana. This is very disappointing to hear. Was hoping after all your devotion to this 6 month program, we'd hear great results. Thanks for being the guinea lizard for us.

[papaki]

Probably you didnt gain because you already have made big gains.I think that excercise with chemical PE can boost the gains in the first months.....

[john69]

Ig, there is no WAY IGF-lr3 does anything for PE.

I know TONS of guys who have used it for sporting purposes in doses of 100mcg per day, and have never heard anyone ever mention an increase in cocksize, not one.

Its crap for muscle gains too TBH.

Hanging and test injections are where my money is going for now.

[Iguana]

Well, fellas I'm not giving up yet...

I still believe that Chemical PE will one day be hands down the preferred way to go. The chemicals may change but I'm a firm believer that a pharmacological approach will win out over manual exercises and surgery. Why, I think most of us realize the limits to what manual exercises can do. Surgery, at this point, is very risky and not very effective. Granted this will probably improve drastically in the near future but pharmacology will more likely be the choice of many.

Just think, If you could gain 1/2" length and/or girth per month guaranteed with 1, 2 or even 3 injections per week, who wouldn't do it? For most guys, 6 months of PE and you're done. Imagine, from 6" to 9" in six months.

IGF-1 DOES INDUCE PENILE GROWTH:

Aim. To investigate whether intracavernosal injection of IGF-1 protein can restore erectile function in the aging rat.

Results. After IGF-1 treatment, the ICP responses was significantly increased as the young control group in both the IGF-1 1 µg/kg and the IGF-1 10 µg/kg group compared with the vehicle-only group at 4 and 8 weeks (P < 0.05). Masson's trichrom staining showed the percentage of cavernosal smooth muscle was increased in IGF-1 treatment group. IGF-1 increased e-NOS expression. NOS activities and cGMP concentrations were also significantly increased in IGF-1 treatment rats.

Conclusions. IGF-1 improved erectile function in aged rats via restoration the integrity of smooth muscle of corpus cavernosum and modulation of NO-cGMP pathways. Pu, X-Y, Wang X-H, Gao W-C, Yang Z-H, and Li S-L. Insulin-like growth factor-1 restores erectile function in aged rats: Modulation the integrity of smooth muscle and nitric oxide-cyclic guanosine monophosphate signaling activity. J Sex Med **;**:**–**.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/do...09.2008.00817.x

This pretty much says it all. IGF-1 does in fact increase smooth muscle cells.

Effects of Insulin-Like Growth Factor-1 on Proliferation of Human Corpus Cavernosal Smooth Muscle Cells.

Kim MK, Park K, Lee HS, Ahn K, Lee HC.

Department of Urology, Chonnam National University Medical School, Gwangju, Korea. kpark@chonnam.ac.kr
Department of Microbiology, Chonnam National University Medical School, Gwangju, Korea.
Department of Anatomy, Chonnam National University Medical School, Gwangju, Korea.

PURPOSE: Insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) promotes the proliferation and migration of penile cavernous smooth muscle cells in the rat. The goals of this study were to evaluate the expression of IGF-1 and IGF-1 receptor (IGF-1R) in human corpus cavernosal smooth muscle cells (HCCSMCs) and to investigate the effect of IGF-1 on the proliferation of these cells in vitro. MATERIALS AND METHODS: The HCCSMCs were cultured from five impotent patients. The smooth muscle cells were identified by immunofluorescent stain. Total RNA was extracted, and IGF-1 gene expression was determined by RT-PCR. The IGF-1R immunoreactivity was examined by fluorescent Immunocytochemistry. Cell growth was assessed with a novel proliferation assay based on bioreduction of the fluorescent dye, Alamar blue. RESULTS: Endogenous IGF-1 mRNA expression was detected by RT-PCR analysis. The HCCSMCs were positive for IGF-IR. The proliferation of HCCSMCs increased with the dose in response IGF-1 in the culture medium in concentrations up to 100 ng/ml. CONCLUSIONS: Both IGF-1 and IGF-1R are expressed endogenously in human corpus cavernosal smooth muscle cells. IGF-1 promotes the proliferation of these cells in vitro.

So why my poor results? Here's the problem; My personal belief is that probably 90% of the IGF-1 LR3 out there is fake. Why? Well only there is only 1 legitimate manufacture of IGF-1 LR3 in the US and they hold the patent. Like most manufacturers of biological agents and reagents, they will only sell to verified legitimate research institutions and universities. Anyone purchasing quantities close to what some of the peptide resellers are doing would likely be very suspect.

There is the possibility or even probability that there are legitimate Chinese manufactures and suppliers. There are some who claim to be so and are probably not too worried about patent infringement. The problem still remains the same. For every legit distributor there is probably 99 fake ones.

I feel confident that if I can secure real IGF-1 LR3 from a legitimate supplier that I will see results.

john69, as far as body builders go. If they are indeed using the real McCoy it's very unlikely they would experience any penile growth. IGF-1 binds very quickly at or near the injection site. Granted LR3 has a greater extended half-life but it's still not likely it would end up in the penis in any substantial quantities.

Next hurdle; find a legit distributor that I can buy from...

[john69]

Ig, interesting stuff

Rat studies dont mean a thing, if they did there would be a WHOLE RAFT of very interesting compounds we as humans could take for a whole variety of things, unfortunately they dont and we cant.

Whether fat burners such as clenbuterol - that will turn a fat cow into the indredible hulk - or injectable aminos that will do all manner of nice things in rats, the results just fail to materialise so often when trialed in humans.

Secondly, that study was in vitro, and again, its a WHOLE different ball game dealing with an in vivo study, much less finding several studies with repeat results in humans.

Also, bodybuilders do not use IGF-1, IGF-1 is useless because of its half life and needs to bind to binding proteins for stability. Bodybuilders infact use IGF1-Lr3 which is a stable product and can be injected every 12 hours or so.

My point is, that even if we are discussing cell differentiation and poliferation as sought by guys who choose to use IGF, MGF and other peptides, the fact is in most all real world settings, the application of these peptides is [to all intents] most disappointing indeed.

I have a hunch that IGF1-Lr3 [and the cell differentiation thereof] will not give rise to extra inches, but rather it will [maybe] give rise to a mm or two in length over the course of a year, that can be then stretched via manual exercises to another centimetre.

This is what is seen in bodybuilders using IGF1-lr3 for muscle gains. Unlike steroids they do not see pounds of muscle gains on this stuff, however what they do see over the course of a year is about 5 pounds of new weight that is thought to have come from new muscle cells via IGF1-lr3s effect on satellite cells.

A veteran PE guy like yourself would be able to tell if such small gains are new or just the result of continued stretching, whereas a newbie PE guy wouldnt; so yeah, I am interested to see what you get over the next year or so if you continue with the IGF1-Lr3

Good luck with it mate.

[Saint]

Originally Posted by john69

Ig, interesting stuff

Rat studies dont mean a thing, if they did there would be a WHOLE RAFT of very interesting compounds we as humans could take for a whole variety of things, unfortunately they dont and we cant.

Whether fat burners such as clenbuterol - that will turn a fat cow into the indredible hulk - or injectable aminos that will do all manner of nice things in rats, the results just fail to materialise so often when trialed in humans.

Secondly, that study was in vitro, and again, its a WHOLE different ball game dealing with an in vivo study, much less finding several studies with repeat results in humans.

Also, bodybuilders do not use IGF-1, IGF-1 is useless because of its half life and needs to bind to binding proteins for stability. Bodybuilders infact use IGF1-Lr3 which is a stable product and can be injected every 12 hours or so.

My point is, that even if we are discussing cell differentiation and poliferation as sought by guys who choose to use IGF, MGF and other peptides, the fact is in most all real world settings, the application of these peptides is [to all intents] most disappointing indeed.

I have a hunch that IGF1-Lr3 [and the cell differentiation thereof] will not give rise to extra inches, but rather it will [maybe] give rise to a mm or two in length over the course of a year, that can be then stretched via manual exercises to another centimetre.

This is what is seen in bodybuilders using IGF1-lr3 for muscle gains. Unlike steroids they do not see pounds of muscle gains on this stuff, however what they do see over the course of a year is about 5 pounds of new weight that is thought to have come from new muscle cells via IGF1-lr3s effect on satellite cells.

A veteran PE guy like yourself would be able to tell if such small gains are new or just the result of continued stretching, whereas a newbie PE guy wouldnt; so yeah, I am interested to see what you get over the next year or so if you continue with the IGF1-Lr3

Good luck with it mate.

Man, I thought there was a whole raft of interesting compounds out there? how about Finaplix made for cows, but is "proven" to totally transform the human physic? or your Testosterone Propinate in Synovex cow implants? or the Winstrol tested on horses. I wonder why Sylvester stallone risked so much when he got caught bringing growth hormone across the border if it's bunk and doesn't work. which reminds me. I wonder how he got to look that good without chemicals? I do agree that most chemicals have disappointing results, but that is probably because of the potentcy or dosage. who can afford to do that stuff at high doses for a long time?no offense John, but isn't all of this stuff a big experiment anyway? have some faith.

[john69]

Originally Posted by Saint

Man, I thought there was a whole raft of interesting compounds out there? how about Finaplix made for cows, but is "proven" to totally transform the human physic? or your Testosterone Propinate in Synovex cow implants? or the Winstrol tested on horses.

Firstly, dont confuse 'brands marketed for certain animals' as meaning they are were 'designed' only for those animals, or for your next trick you will be telling us winstrol is a 'horse steroid' whatever that is.. ooops too late

Nope, they are all anabolic steroids, derivatives of testosterone, and as such - and hold onto your hat - they work because humans have.. wait for it... androgen recpeptors that interact with - get ready - tesosterone!! see, that wasnt difficult was it? or perhaps you actually believe animals have a 'different' kind of testosterone to humans?

Why on earth you have taken my previous post to say 'nothing that works in rats will work in humans' when it implied nothing of the kind is beyond me? but hey.

I wonder why Sylvester stallone risked so much when he got caught bringing growth hormone across the border if it's bunk and doesn't work. which reminds me. I wonder how he got to look that good without chemicals?

You have not even told us why Stallone would be using GH? was he using it for muscle mass? or fat loss? have you even asked yourself this?

Growth hormone does NOTHING for anabolism of striated muscle tissue in humans, it is however a potent tool in our arsenal when used for burning fat.

Feel free to provide a source that shows growth in striated muscle tissue in humans as opposed to an increase in smooth muscle or other tissue.

Medibolics

There are plenty of AIDS patients that are quite happy to sell their GH to bodybuilders and use the money to buy steroids instead.

I do agree that most chemicals have disappointing results, but that is probably because of the potentcy or dosage. who can afford to do that stuff at high doses for a long time?no offense John, but isn't all of this stuff a big experiment anyway? have some faith.

Faith? have you any idea how long IGF has been used by bodybuilders? its been a mainstay for nigh on 15 years now; we have seen several varieties come and go; no offence, but you stick with your faith, I'll stick with tried and tested experience; oh and PM me, I have some snake oil to sell you

If you want a plethora of studies for compunds that show stunning results in rats but of which do zip when applied in humans, let me know and I'll indulge you

It takes a lot more than mere long term faith to motivate me to hang several pounds from my knob each day; I want soem degree of objective process here.



"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
Albert Einstein

[Saint]

Originally Posted by john69

Firstly, dont confuse 'brands marketed for certain animals' as meaning they are were 'designed' only for those animals, or for your next trick you will be telling us winstrol is a 'horse steroid' whatever that is.. ooops too late

Nope, they are all anabolic steroids, derivatives of testosterone, and as such - and hold onto your hat - they work because humans have.. wait for it... androgen recpeptors that interact with - get ready - tesosterone!! see, that wasnt difficult was it? or perhaps you actually believe animals have a 'different' kind of testosterone to humans?

Why on earth you have taken my previous post to say 'nothing that works in rats will work in humans' when it implied nothing of the kind is beyond me? but hey.

You have not even told us why Stallone would be using GH? was he using it for muscle mass? or fat loss? have you even asked yourself this?

Growth hormone does NOTHING for anabolism of striated muscle tissue in humans, it is however a potent tool in our arsenal when used for burning fat.

Feel free to provide a source that shows growth in striated muscle tissue in humans as opposed to an increase in smooth muscle or other tissue.

Medibolics

There are plenty of AIDS patients that are quite happy to sell their GH to bodybuilders and use the money to buy steroids instead.

Faith? have you any idea how long IGF has been used by bodybuilders? its been a mainstay for nigh on 15 years now; we have seen several varieties come and go; no offence, but you stick with your faith, I'll stick with tried and tested experience; oh and PM me, I have some snake oil to sell you

If you want a plethora of studies for compunds that show stunning results in rats but of which do zip when applied in humans, let me know and I'll indulge you

It takes a lot more than mere long term faith to motivate me to hang several pounds from my knob each day; I want soem degree of objective process here.



"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
Albert Einstein

John, sorry I hit a nerve. I was just shocked that you were knocking a fellow pe'r because he was trying something that made sense. like chemical pe. but it sounds like your an expert. I do know how long IGF has been around, but you say it doesn't work?... hymm? I guess all those bodybuilders didn't know what they were doing and wasted there money and should have got your advice on "tried and tested" products. why dont you put your money where your mouth is and post a pic? I'll post mine and we'll see who's been "living it" and who's been just studying? I'll put my faith up against your studies. oh, about stallone, look at him in the first rambo then watch the movie Cliffhanger. you tell me if he gained muscle mass. I cant wait for you to indulge me, prove that have done more than read a couple books. I'll get you a pic tomorrow, I gotta go take my worthless Glutamine and protein.

[john69]

Originally Posted by Saint

John, sorry I hit a nerve. I was just shocked that you were knocking a fellow pe'r because he was trying something that made sense. like chemical pe. but it sounds like your an expert. I do know how long IGF has been around, but you say it doesn't work?... hymm? I guess all those bodybuilders didn't know what they were doing and wasted there money and should have got your advice on "tried and tested" products.

LOL, you have NO IDEA what bodybuilders use and do not use.

Of course Einstein, you can always tell us why NOBODY uses systemic infusions of IGF-1 anymore? game over, thanks for playing.

why dont you put your money where your mouth is and post a pic? I'll post mine and we'll see who's been "living it" and who's been just studying? I'll put my faith up against your studies. oh, about stallone, look at him in the first rambo then watch the movie Cliffhanger. you tell me if he gained muscle mass.

Yeah, because you have any clue what Stallone would have been taking? er no! we have already established you know sod all about IGF use in pro bodybuilding, yet here you are trying to convince us you have a clue about what Hollywood actors are using? Jesus, do you actually read your posts before pressing 'submit'?

GH's ability to burn fat and thus serve as a potent addidtion to nutrient partitioning (know what that is? idiot) and allow the user to then make 'larger' [read: more efficient] muscle gains whilst using steroids explains in one regard why GH is useless by itself for building muscle - as documented by gurus from Duchaine to Mooney - of course this would have escaped you, but again, thanks for playing.

I cant wait for you to indulge me, prove that have done more than read a couple books. I'll get you a pic tomorrow, I gotta go take my worthless Glutamine and protein.

Pathetic strawman that reveals you for the know nothing moron you are; is that really all you have?

Since you feel the need to encourage the members here to spend thousands on novel peptides that wont do what they what, we can get into this if you want.

As said, post a link to a study that shows anabolism in human striated muscle tissue as a result of GH administration, you wont, because you cant, if you had read the link I provided, you would have seen that the experts concur:

"I’d guess that almost 90% of all athletes taking STH [growth hormone] got no anabolic results from it (this includes at least two Mr. Olympia competitors). "
(Ultimate muscle mass, edited by Dan Duchaine. Mile High Publishing, Golden Co., 1993, p.20)

"HIV Study Shows No Muscle Growth From Serostim Growth Hormone"

Medibolics

For those interested, here is a diagram that conveys just why administration of exogenous GH wont work; simply put, it involves a negative feedback loop centered around a GH inhibiting compound called somatostatin:



Hey Saint, I take it you have heard of Michael Mooney and Dan Duchaine, have you not? I mean, you have just told us you 'live it' LOL dear oh dear.

LETS SUM UP BY ASKING YOU THIS:

Are you stating that Beta-3 trials in rats produce results that can be obtained in humans? I want you to answer this because if you say 'yes' you will have to cite the non existant trial, and if you say 'no' you will demolish your own position', but hey, lets hold off from calling you a moron.... oh and, I presume you know what beta-3 means?

Oh and, I would like to ask the mods here to WARN any members here just in csse you are either a source or a narc trying to tempt PE's into parting with hundreds of dollars for some fake IGF.