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  • Eliminating involuntary kegels

    Sorry to start a new thread, it's just a quick question, in two parts.

    Is it reasonable to think that completely eliminating involuntary kegels is a cornerstone of beating PE?
    Is such a thing possible? I guess I'm a little confused as to which muscles are *directly* involved in ejaculation.

    Thanks.
    "I want to go to my death bed one day knowing that even when my heart led me into the fire, I fucking did it anyway, and I have the story to tell."

    Everything I know about Premature Ejaculation

    Your dick is almost certainly big enough. Relax

  • #2
    Originally posted by spanky View Post
    Sorry to start a new thread, it's just a quick question, in two parts.

    Is it reasonable to think that completely eliminating involuntary kegels is a cornerstone of beating PE?
    Is such a thing possible? I guess I'm a little confused as to which muscles are *directly* involved in ejaculation.

    Thanks.

    You are on the cuting edge spanky,believe it or not. You are helping move knowledge in this area forward.

    I am interested to see the replies.

    Comment


    • #3
      Actually, related question for you, does DO always come with BC contractions? And secondly with MMO, Is that essentially what you're doing, keeping the ejaculatory reflex completely at bay while having a normal arousal response?
      "I want to go to my death bed one day knowing that even when my heart led me into the fire, I fucking did it anyway, and I have the story to tell."

      Everything I know about Premature Ejaculation

      Your dick is almost certainly big enough. Relax

      Comment


      • #4
        There are usually contractions with DO.
        In what may be termed the" yang" form that I teach yes. I have dabbled in "yin" forms that are more esoteric.

        Comment


        • #5
          So on this topic, and as a man who's become a "two pumper" over the last 6-10 years, progressively, with nothing helping, I had a fairly interesting ballooning session tonight.

          My sole focus was on not kegeling at all, i.e. resisting *all* involuntary kegels, and I was reasonably successful at this in some regard. I didn't have the "dead" sensitivity of my last session where I could have probably stuck it in a melon the way I was going, but I found I was able to keep involuntary kegels at bay as long as I avoided my frenulum. It took a fair bit of concentration, but I was certainly able to remain well below some sort of threshold - not so much the PONR, more like the point of "20 seconds to PONR if you keep going." as long as I held the kegels off.

          A few things were interesting.

          * Holding RK (forwards or bumwards) seems to work almost without fail at PONR, even with continued gentle stimulation. It also seems very useful to "soften up" as it were, like letting a bit of air out of the balloon.This isn't really related to my original post, but it's still interesting for me to note.

          * Deliberately relaxing the BC (a mental rather than physical stamina exercise) is quite a pleasant, mildly orgasmic sensation, kinda like being horny and having sexual energy radiating out from your cock down your legs.

          * As I got closer to my frenulum, I had a few mild involuntaries, though I found these were quite easy to shut down without having to RK. However I found it impossible to avoid or counter the strong involuntary kegels I had when stimulating my frenulum directly. This involuntary response was a good bit stronger than my strongest deliberate RK or normal kegel and accelerated me *very* quickly out of control, like driving happily along at 30mph and hitting a patch of ice, so I guess I need to work on that. I feel that if I'd avoided this area I could have probably gone on without hitting PONR once for at least an hour. I hope I'll be able to improve this over time, and I'm interested in any suggestions for how I might help that process along.

          * Having earlier read Minutemans huge log, I was conscious that it should be possible to sustain stimulation much closer to the PONR, and as long as I avoided my frenulum, and therefore avoided *any* involuntary kegels, this was far easier than I thought possible. I found I could continue quite heavy stimulation of my glans and ridge pretty close to what I would have called PONR before, with a slightly new flavour of sensation that I'd not been able to enjoy at any real length ever before I think.

          Clearly my kegel muscles aren't awfully strong, although they may be quite well tuned in some ways. Either way I'd love to know if anyone else has been able to enjoy any degree of success with this strategy.

          So I will be continuing an RK heavy kegel routine for now, I'd like to see if this gives me more ability to stave off the involuntary kegs resulting from frenulum stimulation, and if not, I'll need to investigate ways of tackling that directly, because so far, even at fairly high levels of stimulation elsewhere on my John Thomas, I felt safe, and I'm fairly convinced that if I didn't have that one super sensitive response I could go for full penetrative sex with some degree of confidence.
          spanky
          Senior Member
          Last edited by spanky; 01-09-2011, 09:41 PM.
          "I want to go to my death bed one day knowing that even when my heart led me into the fire, I fucking did it anyway, and I have the story to tell."

          Everything I know about Premature Ejaculation

          Your dick is almost certainly big enough. Relax

          Comment


          • #6
            This may interest you. https://www.pegym.com/forums/prematu...lation-10.html

            It is an alternate approach to mine ,but it can also be used in addition.

            Comment


            • #7
              I did find that one, but I haven't read the whole thread through yet. I'm inspired by minuteman's story actually, in that from courage in the face of adversity comes serendipity

              It does strike me though that it must take incredible skill to share that sort of orgasm with a partner.. but bloody hell what a climax if you can manage it...

              (edit) that thought actually makes MMO extremely appealing to me
              "I want to go to my death bed one day knowing that even when my heart led me into the fire, I fucking did it anyway, and I have the story to tell."

              Everything I know about Premature Ejaculation

              Your dick is almost certainly big enough. Relax

              Comment


              • #8
                You have taken in a lot in a short time spanky, don't blow your mind just yet.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Heh, yeah right - one thing at a time. I always do this, it's the nerd in me... ooh, new thing! must read *everything*. NOW
                  "I want to go to my death bed one day knowing that even when my heart led me into the fire, I fucking did it anyway, and I have the story to tell."

                  Everything I know about Premature Ejaculation

                  Your dick is almost certainly big enough. Relax

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by spanky View Post
                    Sorry to start a new thread, it's just a quick question, in two parts.

                    Is it reasonable to think that completely eliminating involuntary kegels is a cornerstone of beating PE?
                    Is such a thing possible? I guess I'm a little confused as to which muscles are *directly* involved in ejaculation.

                    Thanks.
                    There are several ways of doing that, and it is more linked to the "type" of person you are.

                    One would for example try to do a reverse kegel at the moment of the unscouncious kegel, other should try a kegel hold (1-3 seconds) every time the unconscious kegel happen, then a reverse kegel.

                    Bottom line you should experiment with different combinations, in my signature you have a list of kegels, try them and see which ones are of use to you.

                    I notice that when I am at ponr (or in wave) that different types of kegels combined with ballooning or edging produce different kinds of pleasure, so you should experiment with whatever you can, who knows what you will come up too. If there where no experiments people would not discover new things, and instead of waiting for somebody else to find out something one should do it himself, for the experience gained in the process of finding out is sometimes more valuable that the goal itself.
                    premE FAQ

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks MM. That's interesting what you say about the variety of sensation at PONR, so I'll definitely try playing around with the different types. It does make me reassess precisely what PONR is too, as it seems the more I'm working on my kegels the sharper focused and higher my PONR is gradually getting. Conceptually, if you can imagine the snow front is PONR, I guess it's a little like snow receding on a mountain top?

                      Let's say that analogy is reasonable, is it maybe the case then that training is effectively pushing the PONR higher and higher away closer to peak, rather than teaching "stamina" as such? And maybe that means it's possible even to eliminate it entirely such that orgasm is purely a conscious decision? I don't know, just thinking aloud really.

                      As Pegasus implied, no need for too much too soon anyway, I mean I've only just found out how varied, and subtle my body actually all is down there, and it's still quite a surprise. A pleasant one no doubt, if perhaps a little embarrassing in retrospect that I hadn't realised of my own accord.

                      I definitely think there's something in involuntary kegels being either the very basis of PE, or the most obvious symptom of imbalance in the pelvic floor. Certainly in my case, though I'd be interested if others with PE don't have this problem. Plus I did discover yesterday that voluntarily throwing BC kegels doesn't give me the loss of control feeling that involuntaries do which is interesting. Turns out I'm sure I could kegel to PONR easily enough, but the difference in intensity would make that 100% my decision.

                      Given that having any degree of choice whatsoever is something that's eluded me for a long time now, that's really something.

                      On Pegasus' balance theory, I'm totally sold, but was a little daunted at first by the breadth of possibility with regards to training for restoration. y'know, maybe I needed forward RK to be 5% stronger, but then my PC needed training 13% more and so on ad insanity..

                      But I am also starting to see that it really is like riding a bike, as if the front wheel is your normal kegel, and it's easy to steer and stay on the bike, but if someone kicks the wheel as you're riding past or you hit a big rock, you're gonna end up on your face! Also while I may have started my sex life in balance, like a windy day, it was the relative weakness of my pelvic floor that made it so easy to lose that balance. So if the overall pelvic floor is stronger, that imbalance is relatively much less of a factor meaning there's less relative "wobble" in play. That would fit with my experience so far too, as I posted above, consciously resisting involuntaries by relaxing my entire pelvic flor (i.e. not RKing at all) was possible, if not easy, yet that's something I simply wouldn't have been able to even attempt a month or so ago.

                      And I hear you on the personal experience point. There's clearly some really subtle muscles down there with apparently extraordinarily powerful effects, and all the description in the world couldn't convey that awareness. I mean I'm clearly a beginner and that's plain as day to me already.
                      spanky
                      Senior Member
                      Last edited by spanky; 01-10-2011, 08:34 AM.
                      "I want to go to my death bed one day knowing that even when my heart led me into the fire, I fucking did it anyway, and I have the story to tell."

                      Everything I know about Premature Ejaculation

                      Your dick is almost certainly big enough. Relax

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Spanky, I've been having better success at stopping involuntaries mentally, than by reversing with some stomach pump. By there mere act of being aware of the area pelvic area and desiring that it will relax, it will relax to some degree. And I think that's true of everyone. The difference being, that with some people the effect is hardly noticeable and to the great, it's a dry orgasm. Days when my body isn't very relaxed and comfortable, the effect of the mental is smaller. On days where I'm feeling good and comfortable, I can get a sort of cool bubbly feeling in my pelvic muscles. Making any ejaculatory involuntaries stop completely. When that happens there and on my dick, I get much harder than normal. I've notice that with practicing I get more of those good days than before.

                        There really are two things at work. Some can call them yin and yang. Others, perhaps the parasympathetic responses vs. the sympathetic responses. Or maybe call it involuntary "Relax" energy vs involuntary "excited" energy. Whatever you call it. Practicing at the PONR is one way to practice getting the "relax" part to catch up with the level of "excited." The other way is to practice relaxing it even when you're flaccid. I can sometimes get a full erection without touching myself at all.

                        Right now I'm at a point that no matter what level of excitement I'm at. Thinking about relaxation will automatically get my penis harder than before. Maybe it's some mindfulness variant of hypnotism or meditation. I don't know. But I don't need to empty my mind. Instead I just think about the area and intend it to relax, while trying to empty myself of normal feelings of the area. If I strain and year for results, then nothing will happen. But if I just let it happen, while being aware, and intending it, then cool things happen.

                        It's practice and it takes time. But I've been having a harder penis than ever before, as I always suffered with weak EQ. I basically got most of my ideas from the guy on ************* who can do some crazy ballooning with MMO with mental masturbation. (no touching at all).
                        Last edited by kazuma; 01-10-2011, 01:09 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Sounds like you are in balance K this is not true of everyone.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by kazuma View Post
                            Spanky, I've been having better success at stopping involuntaries mentally, ... I can get a sort of cool bubbly feeling in my pelvic muscles. Making any ejaculatory involuntaries stop completely.
                            This is pretty much exactly what I was doing, and with the same result. A very nice feeling . I suspect rather than it being entirely mind over body I had a *very* gentle RK resisting, just on the basis of where I felt pressure, albeit very slight. I figured that was probably the source of the warm sensation. Just keeping the PC (IC maybe?) still I think so the BC wouldn't take hold, though off the top of my head I'm not 100% sure of the exact physiology. It took a lot of concentration either way.

                            Earlier I had a maybe 60% erection just while I was watching telly, and even thinking about touching it it would twitch like crazy, no matter how hard I tried to relax, so frustrated, I just let it subside. On the other hand I was fine with this when ballooning, and found it fairly easy to maintain relaxation on my first (and so far only) try. I had a couple of tiny involuntaries creep through, though I was able to stop them easily. I managed to keep that up for about half an hour without getting close to PONR once, so this does lead me to think that I'm right that involuntary kegels are the sole cause of my PE.

                            (edit-inserted) Who can say what the cause of the involuntary kegels in the first place was. It's been gradual over a number of years so Pegasus' balance theory seems to hold a lot of weight for me.

                            I *wasn't* able to force-relax at PONR though, the involuntaries were just too powerful. I think could have RKd the PONR away from there, but I chose not to, and it was obvious my control isn't close to that strong yet.

                            I do still wonder if it's possible to get the pelvic floor that toned that it's possible to mentally, or however it's manifest, to hold *all* involuntaries at bay right through orgasm, thereby either
                            • completely eliminating physical ejaculation from the orgasm and riding through, or
                            • holding orgasm at a toe's length indefinitely.
                            I'm guessing that's the difference between escalating MMO and plateau.

                            The slightly annoying thing is, I genuinely can't remember if back when I could last as long as I wanted I would have involuntary kegels or not. I was physically aware of the BC/twitch muscle of course, both from ejaculation and from bouncing my cock up and down for a laugh, but I wasn't aware enough of my body at the time so I really cannot say if it would fire off on its own. My suspicion is not, so the focus of my efforts at the moment is to get rid of them completely, with the hope that if I can train myself to do that unconsciously, at least in the main, I'll be able to beat my PE and fuck like I could when I was 25 again.

                            If in doing that I can achieve MMO that would be just dandy, but it's not my primary goal. Regardless I'm now pretty confident of beating my PE this way, and since only two months ago it felt like a hopeless cause, this is a truly wonderful thing for me. Of course, whatever happens, I'll have infinitely more awareness and control of my body than I've ever had, and that can only bode well for the bedroom, right?
                            spanky
                            Senior Member
                            Last edited by spanky; 01-10-2011, 04:00 PM.
                            "I want to go to my death bed one day knowing that even when my heart led me into the fire, I fucking did it anyway, and I have the story to tell."

                            Everything I know about Premature Ejaculation

                            Your dick is almost certainly big enough. Relax

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by spanky View Post
                              Thanks MM. That's interesting what you say about the variety of sensation at PONR, so I'll definitely try playing around with the different types. It does make me reassess precisely what PONR is too, as it seems the more I'm working on my kegels the sharper focused and higher my PONR is gradually getting. Conceptually, if you can imagine the snow front is PONR, I guess it's a little like snow receding on a mountain top?

                              Let's say that analogy is reasonable, is it maybe the case then that training is effectively pushing the PONR higher and higher away closer to peak, rather than teaching "stamina" as such? And maybe that means it's possible even to eliminate it entirely such that orgasm is purely a conscious decision? I don't know, just thinking aloud really.

                              As Pegasus implied, no need for too much too soon anyway, I mean I've only just found out how varied, and subtle my body actually all is down there, and it's still quite a surprise. A pleasant one no doubt, if perhaps a little embarrassing in retrospect that I hadn't realised of my own accord.

                              I definitely think there's something in involuntary kegels being either the very basis of PE, or the most obvious symptom of imbalance in the pelvic floor. Certainly in my case, though I'd be interested if others with PE don't have this problem. Plus I did discover yesterday that voluntarily throwing BC kegels doesn't give me the loss of control feeling that involuntaries do which is interesting. Turns out I'm sure I could kegel to PONR easily enough, but the difference in intensity would make that 100% my decision.

                              Given that having any degree of choice whatsoever is something that's eluded me for a long time now, that's really something.

                              On Pegasus' balance theory, I'm totally sold, but was a little daunted at first by the breadth of possibility with regards to training for restoration. y'know, maybe I needed forward RK to be 5% stronger, but then my PC needed training 13% more and so on ad insanity..

                              But I am also starting to see that it really is like riding a bike, as if the front wheel is your normal kegel, and it's easy to steer and stay on the bike, but if someone kicks the wheel as you're riding past or you hit a big rock, you're gonna end up on your face! Also while I may have started my sex life in balance, like a windy day, it was the relative weakness of my pelvic floor that made it so easy to lose that balance. So if the overall pelvic floor is stronger, that imbalance is relatively much less of a factor meaning there's less relative "wobble" in play. That would fit with my experience so far too, as I posted above, consciously resisting involuntaries by relaxing my entire pelvic flor (i.e. not RKing at all) was possible, if not easy, yet that's something I simply wouldn't have been able to even attempt a month or so ago.

                              And I hear you on the personal experience point. There's clearly some really subtle muscles down there with apparently extraordinarily powerful effects, and all the description in the world couldn't convey that awareness. I mean I'm clearly a beginner and that's plain as day to me already.
                              "Wait till you come to the fun parts " - said Minuteman mysteriously.
                              premE FAQ

                              Comment

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