Very Political

[Dr. Bateman]

You missed his point. He listed examples that defy and contradict the statement "All men are created equal" as this country foundation. It was definitely not true for those Bateman listed.

The humanitarian bullshit story we tell ourselves and moral reason we force ourself to believe we go to wars, invade, and bomb other countries. This is an absolute lie, always been and no more apparent then today under Trump. How can anyone believe when Trump has made it a personal goal to block Assad victims from entering this country. How about deporting man and woman who have lived their whole life here without committing any serious crime, and separating families in the process. These are not humanitarians act, but somehow we believe force and bombs are.

US bombs more countries then the rest of the world combined. In 2016 we dropped an enormous 26,000 bombs(yes that so called pussy Obama), and that is a conservative estimate at best and so far in 2017 that number willy greatly exceed that. If only bombs carried love, compassion, peace, and security. Then we could believe our acts as moral, but they do not. The only thing bombs carry are destruction, violence, hate, and terror.

I strongly believe the words of MLK and no more true then ever "Darkness cannot drive out darkness only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."

Clock, It really doesn't matter if someone got the point or not.

As Cusp said, Blacks have slaves, Indians also did. He is correct, I acknowledge when someone has their facts right. Thumbs up for him bringing that to many people's attention. ALOT of people don't know that. People in the Sudan are suffering much worse things than Whites did to blacks here in the U.S.

However,
-Don't tell me all people are created equal when you had entire plantations full of slaves.
-And say that we were all granted "God-given" rights.
-Bullshit, there is no such thing as god-given rights. Another method of rich, powerful humans using manipulation of beliefs to control the others
-Also, the "Bill of Rights" has had to be amended nearly 20 times. Sounds like sloppy work to me.

Then had the nerve to say "I can never tell a Lie"...

[CUSP82]

Ole George never said " I cannot tell a lie".
Okay so they did the Bill of Rights. Yup slave owners forming a new county. The economy at that time was mostly agricultural and depended on slavery. Had the founding fathers freed the slaves at that point the economy that we had at the time would have collapsed and the new country would have vanished.
Thomas Jefferson, who owned slaves and even banged a few, knew this to be a problem. He wrote that slavery was an issue to be addressed by another generation. I think they choose wisely because the world is a better place for having America.

[Dr. Bateman]

I think they choose wisely because the world is a better place for having America.

Yes. They did a fantastic job, I agree.

Because America and it's owners, control everything.

[Clockwork0]

How about that 'separation of family' thing? I never heard anyone caring that a family is being separated when a white guy goes to jail for a crime and is separated from his family.
As for the illegals that you don't want to separate I mean really who are they hurting? Study after study has shown that illegals take jobs away from poor unskilled blacks, who also happen to be citizens. I guess you don't care about them folk do you?

No issue with illegals who have committed serious crimes and being deported they made their grave choice just like the "white guy" in your example. although it will cost them a lot more. Entirely different for those i was talking about those who are being deported for their only crime coming to this country illegally or for petty crimes(traffic, parking, trespassing, minor shoplifting, etc.)

That is very complex; are those jobs desired? it is uncertain if majority of those jobs are filled even without any illegals in this country.

We all face competition it is very natural in every industry, i do not see any moral wrongdoing.

[CUSP82]

So a citizen deserves no special rights as compared to a non citizen who loves our country so much he thumbed his nose at the laws of the very country he loves. And all those who try to enter legally are saps!

[DarkMedic]

First of all, the founders never believed in an ultimate equality, the idea in itself is ludicrous. If you read the arguments made in drafting the damn thing along with the multiple revisions you will see that the phrasing is in reference to freedom and individual independence. Actually it should be self evident in the document itself as well as clarified by the Constitution that followed, which was never some ultimate guide to morality. It is about governance and a legal system the government must follow to remain legitimate. Anyone care to consider context at all? Apparently not.

As far as slavery is concerned, the US was never a singular entity sharing commonality in all ideals and practices, hence the pages upon pages of systematic fucking deliberation and political discourse written into the founding documents and Constitution. European immigrants brought their practices and behaviors here and unified under a limited set of principles they could agree on. Europeans brought their slavery practices here where it was quickly abolished and abandoned. You can readily see if you just open up your eyes to history and turn a few pages, that there was much disagreement and conflict on the issue of slavery and following the systems put in place, there were structured methods for reaching conclusion. Ultimately slavery was inconsistent with the principles outlined and agreed upon by our union, and it was not such a simple task to force numerous Europeans and their newly formed colonies to end their slavery practices, especially given the physical, logistical and ideological difficulties and discrepancies faced by the colonists. Multiple compromises had to made piece by piece in order to facilitate it's abolition. Effective leverage was achieved but it could not reach conclusion overnight; what an ignorant perspective. Pro-slave leaders were leveraged after multiple disagreements to accept provisions that reduced their political representation in order to achieve what the founding intended and avoid slaveholder's interests from dominating the government and our future. For example, after many many attempts to agree on the details of representation within the House, slaveholders agreed to compromise on the grounds of less tax burden, as the increased population and political representation proportionately relates to the amount of taxes owed by the respective state.

The US ended the slavery practices imported here from Europe much faster than what sounds reasonably achievable, given the amount of force ready for disposal by colonists who disagree and the disparity between what is and is not acceptable within the union.

This country was founded by and still is a nation of individuals, all with their own interests and opinions. We don't have some singular collective robot mind pulling our strings and pushing our buttons. I fear the day we turn all executive, judicial, and legislative processes over to the mob rule and let some dark usurping force eject our common values. Certainly we are being influenced heavily on multiple fronts by parties who care little for our fundamental vision of freedom, individuality, and independence.

The forces that drive us to war are numerous and do not come from a common origin or voice. When differing powerful interests coincide with a push to fight we do it. Those interests range broadly in perspective, from cronys wanting to line their pockets with oil/resource money, generals seeing strategic reasons for war, foreign entities seeing advantage from our intervention and pressuring our leadership, politicians trying to hold onto or expand their power, presidents having their own opinions and justifications, perceptions of moral imperative within the government or military, legitimate security concerns, internal sabotage, and third party philanthropists using our military force as a vessel to seek their own agendas. Strategic interests are vast and esoteric, the public can only hope to somewhat understand the specificity of them, while intelligence and military leadership clutch them in secret. Whatever narrative is provided for public consumption may or may not reflect the objectives we hope to seek, but understand that these objectives are not even singular in nature. The best we can hope for is that they benefit our interests. We are playing a long game of risk with other nations that geopolitically simplify to influence and resources. You think for one second that we can stand down from the world stage with the complexities that exist in this world, you are mistaken. If we disband our forces and stop fighting we surrender to the next global power that cares little for our vision of the planet and we will be invaded the subsequent day, as they will have identified this opportunity as a fortunate and ephemeral glitch in American thinking and the best opportunity they could ever hope to have in decisively capturing the planet. The last part holds true even when we simply pull our forces out of strategic locations abroad. You pull our influence out of a geopolitically valuable region, you create a vacuum to be filled by another nation's influence. There is a reason why the map has not been significantly altered since the world wars. It would be great to play nice and hold hands, but the reality is that the next great empire will emerge and conquer, as it always has before.

It is tragic that we waste lives for fights we have not the resolve to perpetuate to conclusion. Many sons, daughters, husbands, wives, brothers and sisters are wasted for ill return. War is not a toy, but when you are the best at it, people treat it as such and attempt to misuse your skillset. I don't want to see anybody die, but not everyone will play nice. Reality for humans is a perpetual bloodbath. Actually it is this way for all life on Earth.

Do not try to twist my words. I am not condoning anything. I am merely explaining how these things work. The nature of warfare and violence is surprisingly simple, if you can accept it for the tragedy it is.

PS- What good does a bomb that delivers love do, when our adversaries are using death?

[DarkMedic]

-Bullshit, there is no such thing as god-given rights. Another method of rich, powerful humans using manipulation of beliefs to control the others

I totally hear what you are saying Bateman! I just want to point out that these rights are enumerated within a context specifically intended to limit control of others. Certainly there are provisions and methods intended to do what you say but these are not an example of them.

[burtybasset]

The US ended the slavery practices imported here from Europe much faster than what sounds reasonably achievable, given the amount of force ready for disposal by colonists who disagree and the disparity between what is and is not acceptable within the union.

Actually it was the British that ended the practice of slavery around the time they started the industrial revolution.

[WIItard]

Study after study has shown that illegals take jobs away from poor unskilled blacks, who also happen to be citizens. I guess you don't care about them folk do you?

In my area it has been like night and day. The Latinos showed up and the blacks were gone. The Latinos took over all the hot jobs like roofing, landscape etc. etc. They all go to one Catholic church which has grown huge over about 10 years. The church is a whole complex now with preschool and elementary school and I would imagine more to come. That I would say has become the hub of the Latino community around here.

BTW many are legal. It's hard to tell?

[WIItard]

Actually it was the British that ended the practice of slavery around the time they started the industrial revolution.

Yes it was. Why pay the expense of having a slave when the country side is full of peasants who are cheap and no one care if they die?

Believe it or not a slave was expensive and they needed to be housed, feed and taken care of. Some peasant in the village was paid a small wage, if he got sick or died just hire another peasant. Much cheaper then slaves with the side benefit of the peasants being at work or too tired to cause and trouble for the Lords.

There are no nice sides to history, just varying degrees of brutal.

I laugh when people talk about Brave Heart the movie. The main character is out for freedom for the ruling class, peasants still get the same lives no matter who is in charge. Purely an upper class power struggle.