Very Political

[burtybasset]

"The US ended the slavery practices IMPORTED HERE FROM EUROPE." I wasn't talking about slavery on the other side of the planet, I'm talking about American slavery. If you want to get global I would say you are mistaken because there is still slavery today. You are correct that the British ended their slavery. They beat us by 30 years. Not sure what your point is. When the colonists emigrated here there was still slavery in their home countries.

I got the impression from your post that you were trying to lay blame of slavery at the feet of "Europeans" whilst wash the hands of the US of any wrong doing. I was pointing out that the abolition started in Britain and then spread to other nations, as did industrialization. This was my point and I was mistaken in nothing.

Europeans didn't invent slavery FYI. It was practiced throughout human history and I'm pretty certain every group engaged in it. In all likelihood there are children in Africa being forced into a mine as we type. Europeans themselves were in fact enslaved and colonized by non Europeans. Westerners to my knowledge are the only people to have outlawed the practice. I guess people eventually get to right via a whole lot of wrong.

[CUSP82]

The owners that hire illegals when caught are fined and heavily at that. It's funny we call these big farm owners criminals for paying low wages yet many advocate allowing illegals in to work those very same farms and make the rich owners richer. A large farm owner when he sees his crops rot in the field, well he makes no money. So do you think he'll go broke or pay more for labor?

[Party]

The owners that hire illegals when caught are fined and heavily at that. It's funny we call these big farm owners criminals for paying low wages yet many advocate allowing illegals in to work those very same farms and make the rich owners richer. A large farm owner when he sees his crops rot in the field, well he makes no money. So do you think he'll go broke or pay more for labor?

Maybe he won't plant at all and government will pay him for it. A farmer I know got paid 1.3 million over 6 years not to plant a thing.

[WIItard]

The owners that hire illegals when caught are fined and heavily at that. It's funny we call these big farm owners criminals for paying low wages yet many advocate allowing illegals in to work those very same farms and make the rich owners richer. A large farm owner when he sees his crops rot in the field, well he makes no money. So do you think he'll go broke or pay more for labor?

Good luck finding and American to work in a field. They just don't. Also there is a global market for food, only so much can be paid to field workers. You can pay your workers triple and then sell your crops at market value, there goes any profit and you will go under. You have to beat basically every other nation out there as far as expenses and efficiency. They use to grow a lot of rice where I am and I'm not sure anyone grows it any more. Simple reason is rice takes man power and other places in the third world have plenty of people who want a job. In the US they just won't do the work involved in rice farming.

The only way to solve that problem is close the borders and no food grow in the US can be imported from outside the US, problem solved. Go into the store and rice costs $10 a pound and people will go crazy. Loaf of bread costs $7 because wheat prices shot way up. Etc. etc. It's not going to happen that way, commodity prices are priced on a world wide basis.

[WIItard]

Maybe he won't plant at all and government will pay him for it. A farmer I know got paid 1.3 million over 6 years not to plant a thing.

Lots of depends on that. Farmers in general don't have a choice of whether to grow crops or not. there are programs for certain things that the government will pay you not to grow crops.

[DarkMedic]

I got the impression from your post that you were trying to lay blame of slavery at the feet of "Europeans" whilst wash the hands of the US of any wrong doing. I was pointing out that the abolition started in Britain and then spread to other nations, as did industrialization. This was my point and I was mistaken in nothing.

Europeans didn't invent slavery FYI. It was practiced throughout human history and I'm pretty certain every group engaged in it. In all likelihood there are children in Africa being forced into a mine as we type. Europeans themselves were in fact enslaved and colonized by non Europeans. Westerners to my knowledge are the only people to have outlawed the practice. I guess people eventually get to right via a whole lot of wrong.

I added bold to emphasize that my point was that slavery was abolished HERE in the US sooner than it easily could have been, and that the abolition of slavery elsewhere is irrelevant to what I was saying. I realized after that it appeared this way, especially considering the fact that I bolded the imprecise part of my paragraph. That particular point would have been made better by only putting HERE in bold, but nonetheless I caught myself and corrected it.

By no means do I mean to wash the hands of US wrongdoing, I just hadn't considered that part of the context to gain focus as it was such an impertinent piece of what I was describing. Read the whole thing. How does the timeline of any other country's abolition correlate with my point that the US was composed and formed by different people some of which wanted to use slavery and some of which did not? You think that the US was born and it's principles drove systematic slavery? It is exactly opposite. Colonist originating from several different countries immigrated here, taking their entire life's experiences and beliefs with them. The one's who felt they needed slave labor didn't produce this practice and treatment of other's as lesser by following principally from any American idea. They came here and found the means to do it. They were in the wrong, and the conclusion was met systematically.

This isn't an attack on Europeans, nor the West. Hell, for the first generation we literally were Europeans who simply found a new place to build upon. It's a response to the mischaracterization of founding American values. That somehow the fundamental ideas of America were hypocritical because individuals originating from elsewhere were hypocrites themselves. I understand the dark and terrible parts of US history. I also understand that the bigotry they brought and breeded here met a positive conclusion due to the principles written into America's design. I'm glad Europeans made the same conclusions. Not too unexpected seeing as the entire Western world was built upon the same original system of values.

I don't want anyone to mistakenly believe I am blankly viewing history from supreme righteousness. I don't view the past that way, nor the present.

[WIItard]

I added bold to emphasize that my point was that slavery was abolished HERE in the US sooner than it easily could have been, and that the abolition of slavery elsewhere is irrelevant to what I was saying. I realized after that it appeared this way, especially considering the fact that I bolded the imprecise part of my paragraph. That particular point would have been made better by only putting HERE in bold, but nonetheless I caught myself and corrected it.

By no means do I mean to wash the hands of US wrongdoing, I just hadn't considered that part of the context to gain focus as it was such an impertinent piece of what I was describing. Read the whole thing. How does the timeline of any other country's abolition correlate with my point that the US was composed and formed by different people some of which wanted to use slavery and some of which did not? You think that the US was born and it's principles drove systematic slavery? It is exactly opposite. Colonist originating from several different countries immigrated here, taking their entire life's experiences and beliefs with them. The one's who felt they needed slave labor didn't produce this practice and treatment of other's as lesser by following principally from any American idea. They came here and found the means to do it. They were in the wrong, and the conclusion was met systematically.

This isn't an attack on Europeans, nor the West. Hell, for the first generation we literally were Europeans who simply found a new place to build upon. It's a response to the mischaracterization of founding American values. That somehow the fundamental ideas of America were hypocritical because individuals originating from elsewhere were hypocrites themselves. I understand the dark and terrible parts of US history. I also understand that the bigotry they brought and breeded here met a positive conclusion due to the principles written into America's design. I'm glad Europeans made the same conclusions. Not too unexpected seeing as the entire Western world was built upon the same original system of values.

I don't want anyone to mistakenly believe I am blankly viewing history from supreme righteousness. I don't view the past that way, nor the present.

I'm tired of the whole slavery debate or egg on. Basically in the US the white children are told they are responsible for slavery and the blacks are told they are opposed by the white people because of slavery and if they do stupid things it's the white peoples fault.

Slavery is long gone in the US get the fuck over it. The past is the past and you have to move on.

[NOWHARD]

Lots of depends on that. Farmers in general don't have a choice of whether to grow crops or not. there are programs for certain things that the government will pay you not to grow crops.

We have had this in the UK its called stand aside, breaks a lot of farmers hearts just seeing there ground standing there, some have turned to growing flowers for medical use, some just for the seeds, but some of it needs special equipment to handle them, so its a win lose type of game to play. but its not a new thing in farming to do, there is a very good book by a farmer called 70 summers, well worth a read.

NOWHARD

[Pirate]

In California, many of the farming related decisions are determined by water policy dictated from the state capital. We have A LOT of water use restrictions, independent of drought conditions, which are environmentally driven. It is one reason for the huge political divide between the urban areas, which get plenty of water regardless of rainfall, and the rural (agricultural) counties which do not.

[Pirate]

Freedom of speech issue.
In Berkeley California, a politically conservative student group invited a politically conservative journalist to speak on the University campus. A group of supports showed up and were searched by police for weapons. An opposing group showed up and were not searched by the police. The city police then stood by while the latter group physically attacked the former group. The attacking group justified their violence by saying, as I understand it, that under the Freedom of Speech amendment of the constitution, they have the right to silence anyone that they find objectionable "by any means necessary".
This has happened in Berkeley and elsewhere in the US on several occasions.
I find it, and all political violence, appalling and very counter to the ideals of the United States.
What do you think?
Am I missing something here?