Is anyone else worried? (Covid Vaccine)

**Johnny D** · 01-17-2021

This Glenn Greenwald interview is worth watching. For those of you who really want to believe that the CDC, WHO and others are the true "authorities", it might be difficult to get through. I urge you to try.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSVNm7XbnYA

Big-tech and media are acting as information overlords and you don't have to be a conspiracist to understand this, especially when they're admitting it.

**Pegasus** · 01-17-2021

Originally Posted by Johnny D

This Glenn Greenwald interview is worth watching. For those of you who really want to believe that the CDC, WHO and others are the true "authorities", it might be difficult to get through. I urge you to try.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSVNm7XbnYA

Big-tech and media are acting as information overlords and you don't have to be a conspiracist to understand this, especially when they're admitting it.

Who the hell is Glen that he is worth our time ? I know in the US particularly conspiricy theories have lead an attack on actual science but really these days every nutcase is on youtube.

**Pegasus** · 01-17-2021

Originally Posted by Johnny D

And many other scientists contradict him (not to mention the numerous times he contradicted himself) so he is far from the be-all, end-all voice in the discussion. I examine the quality of the source every time and have posted repeatedly where "this other info" is coming from.
About the same as Taiwan, who hasn't implemented lockdowns. You're missing the point. The data shows no correlation between non-pharmaceutical interventions and "success". Cherry-picking countries who have done well to use as examples while ignoring places that have implemented the same measures and not done well and places that have implemented no measures and done just as well is not science.

The US did not implement the same measures in the same way Aussie did . The US people did not act in the same way the Aussie people did .
Oranges with oranges look at the western countries that did well . They followed the science from the start and their people showed some discipline .
From what I have seen the actual leading medical seem to be in agreement with the broad strokes and arguing about details .
You do know how widespread mask use is in asia ? Disciplined the people tend to be? How different the social structure is ?

**Party** · 01-17-2021

Yep. In China, no mask, firing squad. The government has been dictating how many children can be born to a couple for how many years now?
And mask wearing has been the rule for years because of the pollution levels, no harm, no foul there.

If I were Biden, Trump would have fined the Chinese the expense to our economy and tax payers the costs of Covid off what we owe them. What would they say? No? As it is now the U.S. will default at the rate we are printing money anyway. Something is better than nothing.

**Johnny D** · 01-18-2021

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Who the hell is Glen that he is worth our time ? I know in the US particularly conspiricy theories have lead an attack on actual science but really these days every nutcase is on youtube.

Glenn Greenwald is no conspiracy theorist. He's a civil rights attorney and, more famously, a pulitzer prize winning journalist.

Originally Posted by Pegasus

The US did not implement the same measures in the same way Aussie did . The US people did not act in the same way the Aussie people did .
Oranges with oranges look at the western countries that did well . They followed the science from the start and their people showed some discipline .
From what I have seen the actual leading medical seem to be in agreement with the broad strokes and arguing about details .
You do know how widespread mask use is in asia ? Disciplined the people tend to be? How different the social structure is ?

And now Stanford University, hardly an institution to support conspiracy theories - certainly not anti-liberal theories, is saying the same thing: Lockdowns were not effective. Looking at and analyzing data is how we actually "follow the science".

https://www.outkick.com/stanford-stu...t-home-orders/

"there is no evidence that more restrictive non-pharmaceutical interventions (“lockdowns”) contributed substantially to bending the curve of new cases"

in fact...

"it is possible that stay-at-home orders may facilitate transmission if they increase person-to-person contact where transmission is efficient such as closed spaces"

BTW... They've been wearing masks in Asia for a long time because of pollution and allergies - not because of viruses.

**Pegasus** · 01-18-2021

Phah . The leading medical authorities in Aussie get together to work out how to manage covid and it works .
Likewise in NZ . It continues to work . Why because it is done well .

You don't know much about Asia go learn.

**Johnny D** · 01-18-2021

Cognitive dissonance

What we're seeing here is people blindly believing what they want to believe because their actions contradict the evidence. No amount of data or facts will dissuade them. It's a very common fault we have as human beings.

**Fizzby2233** · 01-18-2021

It depends on your information source. I do not get my information from YouTube or Wikipedia and I don't get my news from Facebook or Fox. Data is data and information is what is created from the data. You can use data or misuse data to create legitimate information or pseudo or misinformation.
When it comes to COVID some people are laying out information backed by data from legitimate sources without political spin and then there are those that are invested in contradicting the antidotal and scientific evidence that masks work. If a person wants to argue that there is no real evidence that mask wearing works, I would posit that there is no "real" evidence or data the PE works. There is a body of antidotal evidence that it works. It strains credulity to say out of one side of a persons mouth that there is no evidence that masks work and then be on a site that is almost completely comprised of shared experience of what works removed from any large data source or scientific study.
COVID is different than most things that lend themselves to point counter point or discussion. Like do we really need air to breath. I am not getting into a debate about that, even though I am sure there is some Zealot out there convinced we don't need air. Again, there is no down side to following precautions like mask wearing and social distancing (there is a horrible economic and psychological downside to lockdowns even when necessary). There is a pandemic, many countries have handled it better than us due to cultural and societal norms, the amount of death at the end of this journey will be a number so astounding it will take anyone's breath away and so COVID is a dead horse at this point. People can keep beating it but the reality is "writ large" already. A person's political views or philosophies not withstand history will award Science and Medicine the Oscar and make short shrift of those that were part of the problem not the solution.

**Fizzby2233** · 01-18-2021

How does Glen Greenwald relate to COVID: In the course of nearly a decade of litigation, Greenwald represented a number of controversial clients in First Amendment cases, including individuals and organizations affiliated with neo-Nazism. Greenwald has commented about how the example of the ACLU, which famously defended the rights of neo-Nazis to march in Skokie, IL, inspired him to defend the free speech rights of persons and causes he considered odious.

Historically his focus has be on first amendment rights and it would seem that his arguments stem less from science than "I shouldn't have to wear a mask if I don't want to as it is an infringement on my first amendment rights". Well here is the problem, then you shouldn't have to wear a seatbelt or you should be able to smoke on a plane. Why should you have to stop at a red light? These are rules that yes impinge on the individual right for the betterment of society as a whole.

Mask wearing in a pandemic is for the communal good much as stopping at red lights. You stop at a red light (even if you feel you should have the right not to) because that allows the flow of traffic in other directions and people to cross streets safely. As a society we come up with these rules and for the most part people follow them and so we can have orderly traffic and less deaths. The same with the public safety guidelines for COVID, they may give some bitter beer face, but they are for the communal good. Yes there are people who will say it is my right to smoke on a plane, it is my right to run red lights arrest me, I will stand on the first amendment. They generally do get arrested and that is to the communal good. We need to be able to drive with a sense that most people will follow the rules board a plan with the same sense.
With a pandemic some countries have done it successfully and people are following guidelines and here we have, "I am not going to do it and you can't prove to me why I should." Well what would it look like in other areas of our lives if we adopted that? There are agreements that apply to the public arena so that there is not chaos and death.
Mask wearing will whether people agree or not become one of them. In the same way that I drive safely for my good and yours, I wear a mask for my good and yours. Sorry Mr. Greenwald.