Do humans value pain more

[Hanma Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hanma]

Time for a random but a straightforward thread.

This one is about the idea of human attachment being greater in the pursuit of pain than in the pursuit of pleasure.
I'm just going to keep it simple.

We humans focus more on what we don't have rather than looking and appreciating at what we have; whether it is related to money, material possessions, knowledge, love or skills.

The one thing that strikes me the most is our attachment to love - this somewhat unhealthy obsession for being accepted, finding a partner you can be romantically involved with; the need to find someone you want to spend your time and emotions with.

And when we don't get that we tend to get sad, dwell in self-pity and doubt our ability to attract - we sometimes even doubt our purpose in life over such a thing!
I think of it this way. Not everyone can be a millionaire, not everyone is a born genius, not everyone is physically beautiful and not everyone can be funny and so on...
So why is it a big deal when we don't get a date, a partner, a person we can be affectionate with in a romantic and overly intimate manner? It baffles me, the amount of attention such a simple thing gets and is paraded, perhaps even more nowadays.

... So not only we attach the opposite feelings of love TO love in its pursuit but we also contaminate it with other things, such as pleasure and lust and most importantly the need to control it.

A fine example is marriage - bringing in papers and the government into something you and the other person shares. Sometimes there's even the distribution of money and other resources between the couple in case their marriage doesn't work! These things show some distrust right away!

As for the need to control the other person's behaviour because it doesn't fit in with your own: Why not just say "Honey, I won't force you to change your habits, I know you will be considerate enough to not let some of them bother me. I love you for you because you, yourself, are what attracted me to you in the first place. So I won't control you, it would be like trying to control beauty." Trying to force love or changing your love is like trapping a bird in a cage ... it will be like a songless bird in the end. A beautiful sky is beautiful precisely because it will change at some point. It may or may not revert to the same sky you once saw and so the image is burned into your mind because the spontaneity of this beautiful sky is mesmerizing. This applies to life itself.

We're continually moving forward, as soon as we achieve one goal and have what we want we set another goal and don't take the time to appreciate what we already have. It seems we are, by human nature, compelled to always have a goal to set our sights on rather than stick with what we have. The need to set goals makes me wonder if people think they are separate from the world when they are not. But we don't have to stick to one place either. Things change, everything changes. When you try and swim against a current of water you will have much resistance, but when you swim with the flow you will have the entire momentum of the flow.


Yes, you may be 35 and still a virgin or you don't have a high social status, women, cars etc. Are you not alive? WHO is it that is feeling sad over this? Dig deeper, you will find that your ego is an illusion and your attachment to things like this is silly. Yet you and other people will continue with the 'poor little me' game.
All this leads me to believe that we humans are more into the eroticism of pain than we are into the pure appreciation and nurturing of life.

[Trotsky slaying thedragon Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trotsky slaying thedragon]

"It's okay if you're a dickless, spineless, lonely person. What's important is that you're you!"

Being content with what you have is another way of saying "I'm ready to die." The need to procreate, love, be loved, win (and lose hundreds of times in the process) is simply playing the game the way it deserves to be played.

Get off the bench or get lost.

[second lensman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close second lensman]

Not into pain at all. Just the opposite.

[CUSP82 Administrator Admin of the Month Dec 2014PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close CUSP82]

I'm really into pain. I also enjoy war, torture, people with really horrible diseases and I get really turned on by horribly fatal car accidents with mutltiple fatalities. Does that make me a bad person?

[Toadstool Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toadstool]

I like chains, whips, ropes, biting... tee hee

[Hanma Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hanma]

"It's okay if you're a dickless, spineless, lonely person. What's important is that you're you!"

Who exactly is it that's making this statement?

Being content with what you have is another way of saying "I'm ready to die."

No, it isn't. Not even close. You may be content with what you have but when it comes to dying you will fear it because you are not content with the thought of dying. You will fear it because you have resistance to death. When we show resistance to fear, we become more afraid. Now you tell me, does death really exist?

The need to procreate, love, be loved, win (and lose hundreds of times in the process) is simply playing the game the way it deserves to be played.

No offence but that's bullshit. What game do you mean? Skirt chasing for men or pants chasing for women? Is that it? That's not a game, that's a routine.
If the game is worthwhile, fun, flexible and robust then go for it and play the game. But more often than not, the game is rigged, the players are horrible and people would rather become black sheep then no sheep at all.

The need to love and to be loved: The way you describe it sounds like it's being forced. Just like water doesn't need to flow, love doesn't need to be chased and put onto people. When there is a path for the water to flow, it will flow. Otherwise when it's enclosed, it is stationary; the water will not force itself to flow uphill or anywhere else. Similarly, love will happen itself. No need to make it complicated. Just enjoy life and enjoy the company of people that you like. Don't beat yourself for it.
Thinking of this joyful spontaneous existence as a game played by mostly stubborn people makes you lose track of it in the first place. The way you describe it makes it sound like this GAME is only important for one part, the destination, the end part when you finally get someone to “love”. The whole point of dancing is to dance, not where you should arrive. There’s no fun otherwise.
Now let’s say you found your partner. Then what? How long can you get your brain to release chemicals that made the whole thing fun? 12 months? Then what? We cheat ourselves by thinking that we have to get somebody else otherwise I am incomplete. Thinking of life or in this case, love, by analogy of a game or a journey, where the purpose was to seriously get to that end, made us miss the point all along. It was a musical and we were meant to sing.

Get off the bench or get lost.

You and your game players stand on the bench, I'll walk wherever I want instead.

I'm really into pain. I also enjoy war, torture, people with really horrible diseases and I get really turned on by horribly fatal car accidents with mutltiple fatalities. Does that make me a bad person?

Heard worse. You should go on /b/ section of 4chan, you will find some nice people there.

[Guest Close XitemeM]

I like how you can stick up for yourself and you're a very thoughtful dude. One reason we may be attracted to pain is so we can learn. You know how they say wisdom and understanding only comes with hardship? Well, I hate that idea. I don't like that the idea that people have to suffer in order to have genuine insight or empathy. I'm afraid though that it's very often true.

I think no matter the situation we're in, just be thoughtful. Try and be self aware. Question our reactions, feelings, thoughts, behaviours and most importantly, our beliefs. A lot of them are automatic responses, and I think the more we let ourselves be defined by these automatic responses without any reflection, the less... alive we are.

We're supposed to be self aware, sentient beings. But there is a wide gradient of consciousness and I think that a lot of us haven't even woken up yet. I'm not saying I am either really, but I recognise the potential.

[Toadstool Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toadstool]

Heard worse. You should go on /b/ section of 4chan, you will find some nice people there.

don't do it! It's a trap

[Hanma Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hanma]

One reason we may be attracted to pain is so we can learn. You know how they say wisdom and understanding only comes with hardship? Well, I hate that idea. I don't like that the idea that people have to suffer in order to have genuine insight or empathy. I'm afraid though that it's very often true.

If you don't fall you won't know how to get back up.
And you don't have to suffer to gain wisdom, you can learn by other peoples' pain. Okay that's not really amusing, but, you can still gain wisdom by looking at things around you. There are more than one ways to learn, pain is one of them. Is it necessary? Not entirely.

I think no matter the situation we're in, just be thoughtful. Try and be self aware. Question our reactions, feelings, thoughts, behaviours and most importantly, our beliefs. A lot of them are automatic responses, and I think the more we let ourselves be defined by these automatic responses without any reflection, the less... alive we are.

How can we be self aware when we're trying to be aware of ourselves? Isn't that clouding our view of ourselves? I mean, when we think of purifying our mind, we imply that it is dirty to begin with. So how can we clean our minds by having the desire to clean our minds (of desire) especially by thinking it's dirty? I think similar thing applies here.
Who is it that's the thinker; who is it that wants to be aware of itself?

[Guest Close XitemeM]

How can we be self aware when we're trying to be aware of ourselves? Isn't that clouding our view of ourselves? I mean, when we think of purifying our mind, we imply that it is dirty to begin with. So how can we clean our minds by having the desire to clean our minds (of desire) especially by thinking it's dirty? I think similar thing applies here.

It doesn't have to be empty or clean, just has to be true to yourself. So if you noticed yourself reacting or feeling a certain way to a belief or some stimulus, you'd just pay attention. That's all for now. Pay attention. So if it happens enough to be important, you can question whether the belief that is bringing about that response is valid. You might, once it's been consciously realised, say no way that's a bullshit belief, and begin correcting it. You may however find youself agreeing with it entirely, in which case good for you

Who is it that's the thinker; who is it that wants to be aware of itself?

Whatever the answer is, it's worth finding out right? If we start drilling down to our truths and prune off the crap, we'll be closer to finding out I think.

It could be that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain, it could be that we have a spark of the divine, or it could simply be that the brain can't observe itself observing and consciousness is an illusion. Pretty f**king cool illusion though. I think neuroscience, computing, philosophy, psychology and physics will all need to come to the fore to really attempt to answer this.

This may sound silly, but my hypothesis is that the brain is a very clever input/output device that connects the material world with the supernatural (for lack of a better word) and that it is our true nature that creates the seed for the constructs of our personality. We can let our personality get defined by circumstance and the world, or... we can pay attention.

[Trotsky slaying thedragon Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Trotsky slaying thedragon]

Who exactly is it that's making this statement?


No, it isn't. Not even close. You may be content with what you have but when it comes to dying you will fear it because you are not content with the thought of dying. You will fear it because you have resistance to death. When we show resistance to fear, we become more afraid. Now you tell me, does death really exist?


No offence but that's bullshit. What game do you mean? Skirt chasing for men or pants chasing for women? Is that it? That's not a game, that's a routine.
If the game is worthwhile, fun, flexible and robust then go for it and play the game. But more often than not, the game is rigged, the players are horrible and people would rather become black sheep then no sheep at all.

The need to love and to be loved: The way you describe it sounds like it's being forced. Just like water doesn't need to flow, love doesn't need to be chased and put onto people. When there is a path for the water to flow, it will flow. Otherwise when it's enclosed, it is stationary; the water will not force itself to flow uphill or anywhere else. Similarly, love will happen itself. No need to make it complicated. Just enjoy life and enjoy the company of people that you like. Don't beat yourself for it.
Thinking of this joyful spontaneous existence as a game played by mostly stubborn people makes you lose track of it in the first place. The way you describe it makes it sound like this GAME is only important for one part, the destination, the end part when you finally get someone to “love”. The whole point of dancing is to dance, not where you should arrive. There’s no fun otherwise.
Now let’s say you found your partner. Then what? How long can you get your brain to release chemicals that made the whole thing fun? 12 months? Then what? We cheat ourselves by thinking that we have to get somebody else otherwise I am incomplete. Thinking of life or in this case, love, by analogy of a game or a journey, where the purpose was to seriously get to that end, made us miss the point all along. It was a musical and we were meant to sing.


You and your game players stand on the bench, I'll walk wherever I want instead.

I guess I don't understand what you're saying.

[Rockitman Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Rockitman]

"I never saw a wild thing feel sorry for itself.
A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough
Without ever feeling sorry for itself." - D.H. Lawrence

Some of you may have read that in an English Lit class, others may have heard it recited by Viggo Mortensen in the movie "G.I. Jane."

It illustrates what is both a gift and a curse to human beings: the ability to think in abstract, and of course, a soul. We can contemplate the stars, create things of beauty, feel love, etc. etc. We can also create monsters where none exist, deceive others, and we can take anger and dispair to the lowest of depths in our souls. Most of all, we humans are singular on this earth because WE HAVE THE UNCANNY ABILITY TO TORTURE OURSELVES.

I'm glad this subject came up, because I see so many guys here caught in a 'negative loop' and needlessly wallowing in their own self-pity for no reason. Ironically, those who are the most hopeless are NOT guys with micro or injured penises, in fact, given their posted stats, they are average if not slightly above-average in their size. What is small is their self-esteem and their capacity to get themselves out of their often self-inflicted 'funk.' Out of common courtesy to the forum member, I won't link the thread, but I remember this guy who was down on himself for the way he was with women: the outpouring of support and sound advice from other members was touching, yet this guy apparently ignored it and continued to be down on himself. If you browse the threads here, you'll find that theme time and time again.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: these forums are more about fixing men's psyches than they are about growing dicks.

So, do humans value pain more than pleasure? Unfortunately some do, and if we can't reach out to them in the spirit of compassion and fellowship, let's hope that somehow, somewhere they find the peace and enlightenment that they so deserve, that we ALL deserve.

[Gspot Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Gspot]

Christ: "Take up your cross and follow me";
the Buddha: "Life is suffering";
Nietzsche: "What does not kill me makes me stronger";
Conan the Barbarian: the wheel of pain;
climbing a moutain road on my bike;
Smeagol's heroic half-milenia long quest to destroy the Ring of Power;
nothing worth doing is easy;
the road to pleasure is paved in pain; *(so say some, but many Rav and others dispute this claim, while I rather like it, but I am really something of a sadist...)
the sadist: pain is pleasure;
if humans do not value pain, humans are stupid.

(but there are many raisons why humans clearly stupid are, that is, many of you are, me not, me am gineous!)

[Toadstool Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Toadstool]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: these forums are more about fixing men's psyches than they are about growing dicks.

I've gotten that feeling time and again. I spend more time giving long posts about why men should feel confidence and how they can go about getting it than i do about how they can enlarge their ding dong. PE is straight forward enough. Simple rules anyone can follow. Confidence and self improvement is a little tougher.

These forums have inspired me to write an informal essay on the topic of confidence. It's still a work in progress but I hope it gets good reviews.

I don't think humans value pain more than pleasure though. In the brain, pain and pleasure are almost identical. So it would be easy for the two to get mixed up. Look at a sadist, or someone who cuts themselves. Pleasure is often derived from the pain they inflict.
But do we value pain more? I don't think so. I think pleasure can be derived from pain. I think suffering can bring a lot of good. As an extreme example, look at war: It's brought medical and technological advancements. The happiest people in the world are in the most impoverished areas.
I think people are quick to become violent when it is not necessary. I think some people enjoy inflicting pain on others for their own betterment. you can see that in these very forums, where people berate and insult others over insignificant things. You can see that in dictatorships, where one dictator dominates a group of people, where he has riches and spoils and the rest are left with nothing.
Giving pain often means getting some form of pleasure

But there are also people who seek to improve life and do good. Mother Teresa is a well known example. Hell, even ricky martin has done some noble things. We all do. But 'good' is easily overlooked. A lot of people tend to focus on pain and the negative side

[somebodyelse Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close somebodyelse]

I've gotten that feeling time and again. I spend more time giving long posts about why men should feel confidence and how they can go about getting it than i do about how they can enlarge their ding dong. PE is straight forward enough. Simple rules anyone can follow. Confidence and self improvement is a little tougher.

These forums have inspired me to write an informal essay on the topic of confidence. It's still a work in progress but I hope it gets good reviews.

I don't think humans value pain more than pleasure though. In the brain, pain and pleasure are almost identical. So it would be easy for the two to get mixed up. Look at a sadist, or someone who cuts themselves. Pleasure is often derived from the pain they inflict.
But do we value pain more? I don't think so. I think pleasure can be derived from pain. I think suffering can bring a lot of good. As an extreme example, look at war: It's brought medical and technological advancements. The happiest people in the world are in the most impoverished areas.
I think people are quick to become violent when it is not necessary. I think some people enjoy inflicting pain on others for their own betterment. you can see that in these very forums, where people berate and insult others over insignificant things. You can see that in dictatorships, where one dictator dominates a group of people, where he has riches and spoils and the rest are left with nothing.
Giving pain often means getting some form of pleasure

But there are also people who seek to improve life and do good. Mother Teresa is a well known example. Hell, even ricky martin has done some noble things. We all do. But 'good' is easily overlooked. A lot of people tend to focus on pain and the negative side

I agree 100%

I, for one, do not go out and look for pain. I posted something that had roots in Hanma's first post, but it wasn't the idea enjoying pain... no, in fact, it was much the opposite.

I said, "You have to open yourself up to pain in order to feel pleasure." The idea is not that Pain IS pleasure, but there is a VERY REAL possibility that in order to feel pleasure you may, in fact, experience pain.

While having one of my very deep moments at work (when i was still at the firm) I wandered off into my mind and got something like "poetic." Part of the thought i had was, "What if every day was a sunny day? What if there was nothing but "beautiful" skies?.... If everyday was a sunny day, everything would die." Too much of anything is bad. Look at the Desert... Spotless skies, sunny all the time... What happens? no moisture, and everything that is not built to handle long spells of drought, dies off.

In order to experience the entirety of life, you have experience the ENTIRETY, of life. we fascinated with the instant gratification. We want all good all the time. We want pleasure all the time. The idea behind a lot of these sayings is to BREAK our minds free from the thoughts of pleasure is the only thing we should accept.

now in the case of some of these guys, they get pleasure from inflicting pain on themselves. I don't mean the act of inflicting pain on themselves IS pleasurable, it's the reaction it garners from people. They want to feel accepted, they want to feel loved, appreciated, coddled. They need affirmation. This pain is what they endure in order to get that pleasure.

I'm not saying they're on to the newest wave, but they're a long way into understanding what human nature is. The introvert is typically the saddest person because they end up falling into that pain/pleasure cycle. They realize that at some degree to have pleasure there may be pain a bit of pain. the problem is that many times, just like everything else, it is abused... Too much of anything is bad. If you fall into the cycle that inorder to feel pleasure you HAVE to inflict pain on yourself, that's when you go wrong.

When i said earlier that pain and pleasure coexist, in a sense, I was saying that guys who block themselves because they don't want to feel pain, they automatically block themselves from pleasure. Take that guy who's too scared to say anything to a girl he likes for fear of rejection... That pain of rejection scares him. He, in turn, ends up alone and sad... he berates himself and possibly tells people to at least get the pain out. we always express our pain in some form whether it be wincing, shouting, or just talking about it... When he lets that pain out, it's a release. a very VERY small form of pleasure. When he expresses his pain to a group of people who also know and feel his pain, he gets pleasure from their understanding and possible "rallying" around him to support him. This in itself is a complex conglomeration of Pain and pleasure. It's just been flipped on its head.

I think in order to feel pleasure you're going to have to experience small bit of pain. You don't have to inflict large amounts of pain on yourself, either on purpose or on accident, but you will feel pain when you want pleasure. Joy and Pain, Sunshine and Rain.

I think humans in general are going to always want what they can't have. It's not something we can really turn off. It's something you have to understand that you WILL have happen to you. The trick is to take a step out of your body, look at your situation from the eyes of a person who has nothing. No home, ho family, no money, no job, no love... When you step back and EMPATHIZE (another function of human existence) with someone who has nothing, You can gain perspective. Your pain that you may feel now is limited... someone elses pain is much greater. You wouldn't want to take on their pain if you enjoyed pain... Putting yourself in someone else's position and feeling their pain, actually helps you put into perspective your own position... It is the pain that you have to feel in order to feel pleasure. When everything is perfect, it's wrong... When there's no rainy days, something is about to die.