Let's talk politics.

[closed224]

I know it is fun to pick these things apart. For me the truth is none of the leaders are statesmen. None are trying to do what's right for the collective whole. None are even trying to do the best for the collective population they represent. Whether by state, or district. Instead they are serving parties, and usually not even serving thier party in a positive manner, but rather providing disservice to the other party. It is truly pitiful.
Conservatives by definition want to slow change, while liberals by definition want to change things. Noone is trying to do things correctly. Our system is so flawed that changing it is not enough, and keeping it is not enough. Scrapping it piece by piece and reforming it in a correct manner is needed. I don't support either party, because neither party supports me nor my ideals. Nor in my mind does either party support the ideals of anyone I know. Including all that have posted on this thread.

[Jackxxx]

Jackxxx, you completely missed the point. People go to the ER, the hospital fixes them, costs lots of money, the patient walks out the door. Who pays the bill? Not the patient. Before Obamacare, yes, you would pay the bill. I would pay the bill. All with increased pricing. Now, if everyone has insurance, you don't pay the bill. I don't pay the bill. That's how it works. Poor people with no insurance go the hospital, have babies, $25k+, then walk out the door. You pay for that. I pay for that. I don't want to pay for that. Ergo, Obamacare. Everyone can have insurance so taxpayers don't pay for other people's problems. Not saying it's perfect, but it's step.

I feel the problem with Conservative congressman is they don't do anything. Nothing. No ideas how to make things all better. I feel like their only job is to oppose any Democratic policies, but they have nothing of their own. Republicans took over the House and Senate, yet they have not passed a single Bill to fix anything. They have zero alternatives to Obamacare, yet they don't want it. They want to just keep everything the way it is, even if it doesn't work. I would love to hear some ideas from Republicans. Nothing on immigration, nothing on healthcare, nothing on jobs. Nothing on ISIS. Yet, all they do is criticize Democrats for actually trying to do things.

I know, I understand that point of view. But in my pinion is not the right one. If you force everybody to have insurance, you are still paying for others. If I take care of myself and live a healthy lifestyle, I have way less chances to require the same amount of healthcare than a person who doesn't care about his health. All these years I will be paying for a service that I don't need, nor I determine necessary at this point in my life. All that money will be used for others, and/or stolen/misused by the federal government. I know, I am not perfect and at some point I will need some medical treatment but that is the responsibility of each individual. Each human must be able to determine according to its own capabilities if insurance is needed or not. But no government can come and impose as an order for everybody to buy insurance. That attempts against any principle of liberty and freedom.

At the same time, we MUST make insurance prices and healthcare cheaper, accessible for everybody. But that is accomplished through capitalism, not socialism. A government must intervene only to promote that healthy capitalist environment, not to become part of the problem.

[somebodyelse]

Think past your american "me, me, mine, mine, my, my, I, I" mentality for a second...

It really does affect "you" When someone doesn't pay... You think hospitals just eat the cost of someone who doesn't have medical insurance? like, all those drugs, and saline drips, and doctor hours are just lost to the cause?

no, they aren't lost. Those costs are recycled back into the hospital's overhead and that makes the cost of care go up.

Not only that, you have opportunistic people who hop onto a drug and mark up its value simply to make a dollar. http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/09/inve...n=money_latest That link there is FREE MARKET CAPITALISM at work... money made on the death and suffering of people. That's what free markets do with no regulation.

What needs to happen is Big Pharmaceutical companies need to be held accountable for what they're producing. restrictions on who can buy these patented drugs and why, need to be outlined and enforced. and a general practice of better screening of patience with less "in case shit." uses of expensive technology and wantonly throwing around anti-biotics.

I know of doctors who have "problem patients" and they just throw whatever new drug some major Pharma company advertised with them at patients. I'VE SEEN THIS FIRST HAND!

It's a racket and yeah, ACA is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. In my mind it's a boon for Insurance companies because of all the sh*t that was stripped out of it.

But in order for it to even work a little bit, it mandates that everyone get insured...

SO instead of paying the government a small fee for centralized medical care, you get to be forced to pay a private company that, while limited moderately, can charge you whatever they want for health insurance. That's what happens when you screw with a very complex Checks and balances system that only worked 100% with all of its parts in place.

[somebodyelse]

Whoops wrong link before... Fixed...

Secondly, that's not the first time nor the most egregious abuse of speculatory purchasing of drugs that increased their costs...

It's the one that caught everybody's attention because he was so damn brazen with it. most of these purchases happen "in the dead of night" without anybody's knowledge.

[rbi99]

I know, I understand that point of view. But in my pinion is not the right one. If you force everybody to have insurance, you are still paying for others. If I take care of myself and live a healthy lifestyle, I have way less chances to require the same amount of healthcare than a person who doesn't care about his health. All these years I will be paying for a service that I don't need, nor I determine necessary at this point in my life. All that money will be used for others, and/or stolen/misused by the federal government. I know, I am not perfect and at some point I will need some medical treatment but that is the responsibility of each individual. Each human must be able to determine according to its own capabilities if insurance is needed or not. But no government can come and impose as an order for everybody to buy insurance. That attempts against any principle of liberty and freedom.

At the same time, we MUST make insurance prices and healthcare cheaper, accessible for everybody. But that is accomplished through capitalism, not socialism. A government must intervene only to promote that healthy capitalist environment, not to become part of the problem.

Your logic absolutely blows my mind. Do you think that if you exercise, eat healthy, don't smoke. etc., you are immune from cancer and other countless diseases? You can be healthy as a horse and some drunk runs you over while you're jogging. You fall down and break your arm or fall off your bike and slam your head (please lord don't let the damn commie government pass a law that says I have to wear a helmet). A thousand things can go wrong that are completely out of your control. But since you are so healthy, fuck it, don't get insurance - this is America dammit. Let businesses run things, they are the experts, except that health care cost increases has hit a 54 year low - under Obamacare ( http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/04/us...-low.html?_r=0 ).

Banks went unchecked and realized that there was a lot of money to be made if they gave out home loans to people who couldn't afford them. "Heck, we'll just say you are making more money then you actually are, but it's ok because we are capitalist, not socialists and we know what we are doing". How did that work out? Do you think that car you are driving would be as safe as it is if the government hadn't stepped in and made them do it (thank you Ralph Nader for bringing this information to our attention with your book Unsafe At Any Speed)? Think the oil companies - you know the ones run by capitalist - wanted to see gas mileage go up? You righties love it when the government steps in and tells others what you want them to do, but when the government tells others they have to do something you don't like, that is a whole different story. Abortion, right or wrong, the government has to make a choice and then have that choice approved or disapproved by the courts when challenged. How dare there be speed limits, this is America dammit, and I should be able to drive as fast or slow as I want. Food sanitary conditions, let's allow the capitalist decide how sanitary their facilities should be, or what constitutes healthy food products vs garbage. Except keeping food areas sanitary and food products healthy requires money to be spent that could otherwise go into their pockets (thank you Upton Sinclair for your book The Jungle). Think any of those capitalist run chemical companies voluntarily changed their products (thank you Rachel Carson for your book Silent Spring)? How's that Marlboro taste, pretty good huh - oh you can trust me these bad boys are safe, no way they cause cancer. Fuck the air we breath, our capitalist friends don't want to see the air we breath polluted - oh but wait - you mean I have to spend money to clean my operation up.......Bitch all you want, but without government intervention there would be holy hell to pay.

[rbi99]

I should add I am not a socialist, not a commie lover, but an American. Liberal - guilty as charged and compounded by the fact I am a Democrat. That doesn't mean America, love or leave it, nor does it mean I trust this or any government to do what is in their society's best interest. It really is a shame that the best these two parties can produce are the candidates we now have standing before us, but it is what it is and you can bet I will vote for the people I think hold my and this country's best interest in mind - minimal as that may be.

[Jackxxx]

Think past your american "me, me, mine, mine, my, my, I, I" mentality for a second...

It really does affect "you" When someone doesn't pay... You think hospitals just eat the cost of someone who doesn't have medical insurance? like, all those drugs, and saline drips, and doctor hours are just lost to the cause?

no, they aren't lost. Those costs are recycled back into the hospital's overhead and that makes the cost of care go up.

Not only that, you have opportunistic people who hop onto a drug and mark up its value simply to make a dollar. Drug that skyrocketed 5,000% hasn't come down in price - Oct. 9, 2015 That link there is FREE MARKET CAPITALISM at work... money made on the death and suffering of people. That's what free markets do with no regulation.

What needs to happen is Big Pharmaceutical companies need to be held accountable for what they're producing. restrictions on who can buy these patented drugs and why, need to be outlined and enforced. and a general practice of better screening of patience with less "in case shit." uses of expensive technology and wantonly throwing around anti-biotics.

I know of doctors who have "problem patients" and they just throw whatever new drug some major Pharma company advertised with them at patients. I'VE SEEN THIS FIRST HAND!

It's a racket and yeah, ACA is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. In my mind it's a boon for Insurance companies because of all the sh*t that was stripped out of it.

But in order for it to even work a little bit, it mandates that everyone get insured...

SO instead of paying the government a small fee for centralized medical care, you get to be forced to pay a private company that, while limited moderately, can charge you whatever they want for health insurance. That's what happens when you screw with a very complex Checks and balances system that only worked 100% with all of its parts in place.

No this is not a me, me, me thing and you very well know that. This is common sense. NOBODY will tell me to buy something I do not want to buy. Is it clear? NOBODY. You will have to put a gun in my head and most probably pull the trigger before I take out my wallet and buy something that my free will has determined to not do. It is simple common sense. I know thats the way is done in Canada, Europe, etc, but we are America. Like it has always been and it will always be. I completely understand that when somebody doesn't pay the hospital, they get the money around anyways. However; do you wanna fix that? Simple. STOP once and for all spending money in illegal aliens and cut short international humanitarian aid. I can GUARANTEE you all that extra money will automatically pay for healthcare for every single American every year. So let's not be hypocrite. There is money. It is just being wasted by Obama. And you can say all you want that Bush did the same and all the others, I don't care. Obama is the President now and he is not doing absolutely anything to fix those issues.

About the pharmaceutical companies, I completely agree with that. They are out of control, they manipulate the medical system. Thats why we need an efficient government to control all those deficiencies and we don't have that government.

[Jackxxx]

Your logic absolutely blows my mind. Do you think that if you exercise, eat healthy, don't smoke. etc., you are immune from cancer and other countless diseases? You can be healthy as a horse and some drunk runs you over while you're jogging. You fall down and break your arm or fall off your bike and slam your head (please lord don't let the damn commie government pass a law that says I have to wear a helmet). A thousand things can go wrong that are completely out of your control. But since you are so healthy, fuck it, don't get insurance - this is America dammit. Let businesses run things, they are the experts, except that health care cost increases has hit a 54 year low - under Obamacare ( http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/04/us...-low.html?_r=0 ).

Banks went unchecked and realized that there was a lot of money to be made if they gave out home loans to people who couldn't afford them. "Heck, we'll just say you are making more money then you actually are, but it's ok because we are capitalist, not socialists and we know what we are doing". How did that work out? Do you think that car you are driving would be as safe as it is if the government hadn't stepped in and made them do it (thank you Ralph Nader for bringing this information to our attention with your book Unsafe At Any Speed)? Think the oil companies - you know the ones run by capitalist - wanted to see gas mileage go up? You righties love it when the government steps in and tells others what you want them to do, but when the government tells others they have to do something you don't like, that is a whole different story. Abortion, right or wrong, the government has to make a choice and then have that choice approved or disapproved by the courts when challenged. How dare there be speed limits, this is America dammit, and I should be able to drive as fast or slow as I want. Food sanitary conditions, let's allow the capitalist decide how sanitary their facilities should be, or what constitutes healthy food products vs garbage. Except keeping food areas sanitary and food products healthy requires money to be spent that could otherwise go into their pockets (thank you Upton Sinclair for your book The Jungle). Think any of those capitalist run chemical companies voluntarily changed their products (thank you Rachel Carson for your book Silent Spring)? How's that Marlboro taste, pretty good huh - oh you can trust me these bad boys are safe, no way they cause cancer. Fuck the air we breath, our capitalist friends don't want to see the air we breath polluted - oh but wait - you mean I have to spend money to clean my operation up.......Bitch all you want, but without government intervention there would be holy hell to pay.

ok but you're mixing things up.
If I get sick, is it your problem? absolutely no. It is not of your business. You take care of your life, ill take care of mine. If I want to have fucking 5 flat screen TV's in my living room instead of paying insurance thats my fucking problem. Are you going to dictate now how many tv should I have in order to pay insurance??? If I don't pay insurance and then can't afford the treatment, thats my problem. My credit will be destroyed, I won't be able to finance a car or rent a new place or buy a house. That is MY problem and I am responsible to learn from it.

In the case of the banks, yes they went unchecked and Obama instead of letting them bankrupt, he gave them bailouts. Well done. Now that same people is even richer than before thanks to Obama.

[somebodyelse]

No this is not a me, me, me thing and you very well know that.

...NOBODY will tell me to buy something I do not want to buy. Is it clear? NOBODY. You will have to put a gun in my head and most probably pull the trigger before I take out my wallet and buy something that my free will has determined to not do....

You start by telling me that it's not a "me/I" then jump right to the "I/me" Argument.

However; do you wanna fix that? Simple. STOP once and for all spending money in illegal aliens.

Do you honestly think immigrants are the reason hospital costs are high? Like are you seriously thinking that? Like.... SERIOUSLY?!

ok but you're mixing things up.

If I get sick, is it your problem? absolutely no. It is not of your business.

If I don't pay insurance and then can't afford the treatment, that's my problem. My credit will be destroyed, I won't be able to finance a car or rent a new place or buy a house. That is MY problem and I am responsible to learn from it.

yes your credit WILL be destroyed... in the mean time, where's that money that the hospital shelled out for you? it gets eaten by the hospital as they try to recoup it, through legal means which ends up costing them more.

You see, you not having insurance is DIRECTLY related to everybody else having to pay more. YOU are part of the problem in that case.

[dmizzle]

ok but you're mixing things up.
If I get sick, is it your problem? absolutely no. It is not of your business. You take care of your life, ill take care of mine. If I want to have fucking 5 flat screen TV's in my living room instead of paying insurance thats my fucking problem. Are you going to dictate now how many tv should I have in order to pay insurance??? If I don't pay insurance and then can't afford the treatment, thats my problem. My credit will be destroyed, I won't be able to finance a car or rent a new place or buy a house. That is MY problem and I am responsible to learn from it.

In the case of the banks, yes they went unchecked and Obama instead of letting them bankrupt, he gave them bailouts. Well done. Now that same people is even richer than before thanks to Obama.

Said in the above post. Freshman Economics 101. You're $250k bill for a heart attack gets paid by us. The thousands of people that use the ER as a dr office costs us money. The hospital raises costs. Guess who pays that? Insurance companies. Then they raise our insurance premiums to cover that. So your decisions do affect others. People who are too cheap or poor to get insurance cost everybody more.

Not saying this is the only problem. Obviously this is a complicated issue. So many layers of complexity, but the argument that you not having insurance doesn't affect others is nonsense.