Let's talk politics.

[TheZZMan]

in your attempt to squash me, you opened up a completely different can of worms, including but not limited to the EXACT reason we had this melt down in the first place...

"Credit Markets" are what caused the crash in the first place. The fact that our money no longer is backed by ANYTHING other than the sweat and labor of YOU and ME is the reason people can acquire so much artificial money and use it to purchase ACTUAL things.

Your reasoning for allowing things to "remain as they are" is so backwards as to be painful. You understand why they give you that "trade-in allowance" right? It's not a real amount they have to come out of pocket for the loan they get from you. They make twice as much back in interest from you, plus the built in cost over the actual wholesale "dealer" cost.

I really need for you to understand credit markets before you try to use them as an example...

The money we have, RIGHT NOW, is based on nothing but a promise to pay the government a tax.

What happens when people lose jobs and can't buy stuff? what happens when companies fight raising their wages to employees so that those same employees can survive comfortably enough to actually buy stuff without the need to use "credit" to buy a refrigerator when theirs breaks?

Have you not heard the "Credit Crisis" where Credit was out of control? Just because it's the only way you know how to live doesn't make it the right way or even a sustainable way. That's what seems to KEEP being missed. Just because you like it doesn't make it sustainable.

Reagan's "tax plan" raised revenue, eh? But that's exactly why shortly afterward he had to raise taxes right? because the money that was lost, was extremely difficult to make up, EVEN AFTER The deduction loopholes were closed.

There's no EVIDENCE borne from the "rising tide" principal if that "tide" doesn't include reducing the pressure on the majority of people... If you reduce the pressure on the middle the SPENDING habits loosen. Consumers become stupid and insatiable. that insatiable appetite is what powers innovation.

I just can't fathom the blinders it takes for someone to not actually know this stuff.

I mean if you don't have to deal with it on a day to day basis, sure. However, if you had to understand WHY there were slums in the world (or even in the US), how cities were built around industrialization, how those industrialized zone turned into gentrified neighborhoods, and figuring out how to undo/prevent the mistakes of city planning from decades and centuries of unforeseen unintended consequences (being that developed nations no longer thrive on industrialization but on information), you would never NEED to understand how we got into this mess. just yell and scream and bark and say "lets figure it out from here on."

Can't figure ANYTHING out if you don't know what caused it.

Knowing that uncontrolled credit markets, greed, and corrupt political shenanigans (crony capitalism, like LGhanger said) caused this mess, why would you think balancing an entire WORLD economy on the back of CREDIT and hoping that the rich will "do the right thing" is even BEGINNING to be smart?

Technology changes, humans do not.

That's why those "socialist" countries that people love to hate are doing much better than the USA in every measurable way other than the number of people Incarcerated per capita. they've been around longer, have seen a multitude of horrific things and venture away from the same stuff that caused their misfortune earlier.

Moving away from an Aristocratic society seems like a no brainer... that's what a majority of Europe did...

However, now you have the United States Conservatives diving head long into an Oligarchy based around the wealth accumulation (and subsequent ability to pay off government officials) of the inconceivably rich.

Which, in essence, is another Aristocratic society.

Trust me, any number of you may think you're rich, what do you make? like 150k a year? 200 plus maybe your spouse makes 125k? for a total of something like 325-350k total household income? Lets just say you make 500,000 a year... You think you're rich?!

There's people that wipe their ass with toilet paper costing that much, you think that 15 million paid to a sports star in one year is a lot? There's people make that in a month. They're not very "common" but they exist and your paltry 500k/year is nothing to them. In the current world, $150k/year is just starting to get comfortable in the middle class. You're still very deep in the 99%.

You haven't even begun to get close to crossing over into the 1% yet.

That "Wealth" to these people is not real money, but it DOES buy people and governmental power and enough "sparkly things" to get people to do what you want them to do. It does buy air time to brainwash masses of people into buying your message.

You think that "wealth" is stuff that you spend YEARS to pay off? A mortgage can be spun to look like an asset, but at the end of the day, if someone can come and take it from you for NOT giving them the rest of the money you owe them for them buying it for you, then you don't own it and it's not wealth. the only thing that CAN'T be replicated is land.

Owning land is REAL wealth, and that's what the rich do... they buy land. They buy the land and make you pay them to pretend to own it for 30 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars more than they put out for you. They are making money on you everyday, and if you can't afford to pay because their greed in Credit Markets caused a collapse in the system based on nothing but your ability to pay a tax to the government, and that causes your job to fold, eliminating your ability to pay a tax to the government, causing the collapse of the value of the money it's based on, You're screwed FAR MORE than they. They have actual wealth and they can just snatch whatever they gave to you anytime they want.

you don't have any "wealth" particular. You owe everybody, and you still end up a slave to the credit system, while the ACTUALLY wealthy laugh at your misfortune.

Credit??? Wrong thing to bring up.

as an aside, "libtard" is an interesting pejorative... it's both insulting to people with autism and to the parents of children with autism. It's amazing how ignorant you continue to show yourself to be to the rest of the forum.

can-of-worms.jpg

Careful, here come ZZ

Wow, you must be real fun at a party. What the hell do you do to chill? You ask a stupid question, I give an answer and suddenly you are the smartest man on earth. If you hate society that much, and you hate your life here so much there are lots of other countries with open arms willing to let you assimilate into the ranks.

Pal, without credit, none of this economy happens. You end up with an inner city, cash only way of life. Payday loans, loan sharks, pawn shops, rent to own, and the like.

Get off the 1% bandwagon, you or I am not going to make a damn bit of difference. Join the Occupy group, at least you would fit in with like minded individuals. Bitching at me isn't going to change anything, insulting me isn't going to change anything and trying to school me, someone who has a degree in economics makes me laugh at your profound ignorance. You may think your arguments sounds good, you may claim the higher ground, but you also fail to see the forest for the trees. Tells me you are a renter, live in the city, punch a time clock and have only one comma in the balance of your portfolio. And here is a hint, it is not the republicans fault, they may not be the solution, but it is not their fault either.

[somebodyelse]

Your response will get you a bunch of PMs and Reps saying "you told that guy" or "Great job" or something...

however, in your response, the only thing you did was say "I have a degree so I think I think I'm smarter than you. Nothing you say or do will ever change the system so just be happy in it."

like, seriously? that's the only thing you had to say to that? Just eat shit and smile because nothing will change?

I guess that's one way to live life *shrug*

Only way to change anything is to get EVERYBODY on the same page to understand why the world is the way it is. Once everybody understands, we don't have agree, but to not understand is the epitome of allowing ANYONE to tell you what and who is to blame.

As an aside, i never said republicans (other than as a pejorative) review my posts, i say "conservative." They are not mutually exclusive. Even Obama is middle of the road, and pretty conservative in a lot of things he does.

Hillary Clinton is a Neo-Con in everything financial, even though she wears a liberal social agenda.

[somebodyelse]

The real question is why is living in a "city" a bad thing? Urban centers are the hubs of the world. They are what drive the modern economy. You say that like it's an insult O_o... I dunno man, that was a weird insult that didn't land quite right to me.

[TheZZMan]

Your response will get you a bunch of PMs and Reps saying "you told that guy" or "Great job" or something...

however, in your response, the only thing you did was say "I have a degree so I think I think I'm smarter than you. Nothing you say or do will ever change the system so just be happy in it."

like, seriously? that's the only thing you had to say to that? Just eat shit and smile because nothing will change?

I guess that's one way to live life *shrug*

Only way to change anything is to get EVERYBODY on the same page to understand why the world is the way it is. Once everybody understands, we don't have agree, but to not understand is the epitome of allowing ANYONE to tell you what and who is to blame.

As an aside, i never said republicans (other than as a pejorative) review my posts, i say "conservative." They are not mutually exclusive. Even Obama is middle of the road, and pretty conservative in a lot of things he does.

Hillary Clinton is a Neo-Con in everything financial, even though she wears a liberal social agenda.

If you want to lead a group to change, you can't do it from the far fringes and expect anybody to get on board. You need to migrate to the middle, find common ground and build off of that. This crazy bat shit raving that you are doing is only alienating your base and not gathering any support from the other side of center. Chill the fuck out - you are hyper out there to the extreme left. Which is great if that is where you believe best in yourself. But it is childish and demeaning to put down anyone you are trying to have an adult conversation with. Thus my "you must be great fun at a party" crack. You need to strike up a conversation, not scream from the mountain top. The most intelligent way to persuade a conversation is to understand the other side. You clearly don't. That is not meant as an insult, just a simple point of order that you are not well schooled in the others point of view. It leads to shouting, it leads to hurt feelings and most importantly, leads to zero productivity. You have to get past that if you want others to talk to you in a civil manner.

[somebodyelse]

If you want to lead a group to change, you can't do it from the far fringes and expect anybody to get on board. You need to migrate to the middle, find common ground and build off of that. This crazy bat shit raving that you are doing is only alienating your base and not gathering any support from the other side of center. Chill the fuck out - you are hyper out there to the extreme left. Which is great if that is where you believe best in yourself. But it is childish and demeaning to put down anyone you are trying to have an adult conversation with. Thus my "you must be great fun at a party" crack. You need to strike up a conversation, not scream from the mountain top. The most intelligent way to persuade a conversation is to understand the other side. You clearly don't. That is not meant as an insult, just a simple point of order that you are not well schooled in the others point of view. It leads to shouting, it leads to hurt feelings and most importantly, leads to zero productivity. You have to get past that if you want others to talk to you in a civil manner.

I have had a ton of very civil starting discussions. I have been having the same conversation for 12 years and the calmer I start that crazier the other side gets. Start crazy and maybe the less crazy will try to calmly have a conversation...

Works a little bit, as seen here lol. Reverse psychology!

I'm not actually extremely left leaning. There's very good points to both sides... And I agree with some conservatism but there's a point where the pendulum needs to swing back toward progressive... That time is now.

[Jackxxx]

I have had a ton of very civil starting discussions. I have been having the same conversation for 12 years and the calmer I start that crazier the other side gets. Start crazy and maybe the less crazy will try to calmly have a conversation...

Works a little bit, as seen here lol. Reverse psychology!

I'm not actually extremely left leaning. There's very good points to both sides... And I agree with some conservatism but there's a point where the pendulum needs to swing back toward progressive... That time is now.

So are you anti capitalism?

[somebodyelse]

Technology changes, humans do not. Capitalism is good. Unchecked human greed is not.

Simple concept to understand.

[Jackxxx]

Well, I agree on that. Capitalism out of control is never good. And that is why the role of a government is like a referee on a good football game. The referee make sure all regulations are respected and make sure the game is fair for everybody. If he does, it is a good game no matter who wins. If the referee is bad, teams get out of control.

However, bigger government and intervention would be like a referee telling each player at what speed to run, in which direction to run, and slowing them down when they are going to touch down just to give an opportunity to the other team to score too. That's where we disagree.

[somebodyelse]

Again, your idea of "slowing down" is too simplistic.

That "unchecked touchdown" end run isn't about "games." It's peoples' lives, health, and livelihood. it's respect for each other. When you're so focused on winning a game that you willingly kill and starve people just so you can say you "won the game." you're completely lost as human being and you've become a monster.

So the role of government is to stop sick, sadistic, callous, uncaring, self-serving people whose only purpose is to "win at all cost." by "slowing them down" (in your words) and stopping them from killing everybody else.

yes, government needs to tell businesses how not to kill people (EPA), how not to poison or maim its workers (OSHA), how not to starve people (Minimum wage requirements) and how not to exploit children (Child Labor Laws) because in the name of running for those touch downs, the people you're being a Captian-Save-a-Ho for HAVE done every one of those things...

You think weekends are a conservative thing? That was developed by liberals who fought against unfettered corporations abusing their workers. You think the 40 hour work week is something businesses happily established on their own? No that was ALSO liberals establishing hard work rules, and FORCING companies to pay overtime for hours worked beyond (those are LIBERAL accomplishments)

You think having clean workshops and non-toxic work environments was something business just decided was best to do? No, those are LIBERAL fights to stop dying at the age of 40 from exhaustion and poisonous work environments in the industrial revolution.

The only reason we're here, with these laws that protect us to this day, is because of liberal fights that stood up against corporations.

Corporations have had a lot of their regulations pulled back, and corporations have actually lobbied to even have child labor laws rolled back...
Republican Sets Out To Repeal The Ban On Child Labor | PoliticusUSA's Archives

They will NEVER stop trying to screw people over, and the more you roll back the closer we're getting to Robber Barons that own and run everything.

Again, knowing how this stuff works and why stuff is the way it is, today, will help you see who is really screwing over the American people.

[somebodyelse]

convo for another time.