Islamic Terrorist attack in Florida (Obama goes against the victims)

[closed260]

I like Cusp, and akaTrex, and Jay. I even like Jackxxx, who I think is deep down, a liberal because... he doth protest too much

Each of you suggest "it's not the guns." So what is it? That some people, some of the time, are irresponsible.

That would be similar to the downside of humans driving cars. Jackxxx brings up an excellent point. Cars have been and will continue (auto-braking/self-driving) to get safer. Right now ~30,000 people die on the roads every year. And when automatic-braking becomes a required safety feature on every vehicle, it seems likely that deaths drop below 1000 per year. Maybe less than 100?

Why are gun deaths not going to go down? I think Jackxxx is unaware of the NRA's politically strength. President Obama has made no proposal about guns because the NRA has a ridiculously out-sized lobby on capitol hill. He knows that any congressman (republican or democrat) that joins any gun related law will not be re-elected.

One line I heard was that we have entered the "Era of Ideas". Once it was the size of a king's army that determined power. Later it was the amount of money (or the ability to finance an army as it turned out in the cold war). But now, it's the "Era of Ideas", like "too big to fail" (even if there is no logic or conflicting evidence!) that can out maneuver the biggest army or deepest pockets and hold sway in congress, the courts, or over the man in the street.

I feel like "it's not the guns" is part of one of those tail-wagging-the-dog "Ideas." Jackxxx rightfully calls out Obama's total inaction on gun safety. I think the NRA is the tail, and the president/congress/etc and the people are the dog. The NRA claims it's a "slippery slope... first 'they'(some unnamed enemy) force 'us' to have trigger locks. Then 'they' make a registry. Then 'they' come for our guns... then the Tyrant assumes power." They make scary sounds and murmurs about "you need to protect your family" (from who exactly?) or to keep the "dictator from taking over". Would that dictator be Obama? Someone with so little power on the issue that he won't even issue a proposal! And yet here so many people are... pointing to a straw-man and clutching a device that is more likely to be used on it's owner or one of their close family than on some intruder.

If the NRA cared about lives they would support measures like mandatory trigger locks or less lethal defense weapons. But they really care about their fat lobbyist salaries, and they take advantage of Cusp and Jay and Jackxxx, and many other of my friends with catchy sound bites. They claim "Obama is coming for your guns!"... when in fact no one is coming for guns... even though we have demonstrable proof (australia!) that gun-bans would save lives.

Obama, (and everyone in congress) cares so much for your perception of your need for gun-rights that they let 30,000 americans die every year.

Come to think of it, Jackxxx. I too think Obama has failed us, and should be out of office.

[CUSP82]

Can you tell me how to prevent the bad guys from getting guns? Can you tell me how to stop drug addicts from getting illegal drugs? How do you stop the alcoholic from getting alcohol? The bad guys will always get guns as will the drug addicts get their drugs and the alcoholics get alcohol.

[closed260]

Sorry, for my wall of text! In case anyone doesn't want to read it all: Jackxxx changed my views:

I feel Obama does bear some responsibility for the attack.


Still, Isis loves (and needs) Americans advocating indiscriminate death/theft towards muslims. And I paraphase here: "starve them all and steal their oil."

Isis wants most muslims to die (since most do not recognize Isis as a rightful caliphate) even more than they want christians/americans to die. They can't do it on their own, but if we dont realize that ridiculously few muslims care to hurt us, Isis might just get us to stomp on so many innocent people that it sparks a big west-vs-east war.

[closed260]

Can you tell me how to prevent the bad guys from getting guns? Can you tell me how to stop drug addicts from getting illegal drugs? How do you stop the alcoholic from getting alcohol? The bad guys will always get guns as will the drug addicts get their drugs and the alcoholics get alcohol.

Bad guys with guns: How many bad guys in Australia with guns? Well, maybe there are no bad guys there.

Illegal drugs: decriminalize drug possession. Spend the "enforment/interdiction" budget on treatement programs. Portugal has done this. They spend less, have fewer ODs, and lower prison population.

Alcoholics: Treatment? I got nothing for this one.

I agree that prohibition has a bad track record, but here's the big difference. It's not "you can't have your toy," but rather "You can't have toys that hurt other people. And guns have a long and clear track record of doing exactly that."

How many mass shootings take place with bean-bag shotguns? What kind of weapon wouldn't permanently kill one party in a heated confrontation (like a bar-fight or domestic dispute)? How could you make a weapon that wont kill when in the hands of a human, given that not all humans are responsible all of the time?

[CUSP82]

87 dead in a nightclub in NYC-no gun involved. Killers will find ways.

[Pegasus]

The Aussie experience is that mass killings are not done by bad guys(in the criminal sense) but by madmen . The gun buy back stoped mass killings with which up to that time our experience was similar to the US. While normal criminals found it hard to get guns organised crime in the form of bikie gangs did get them. While they mainly used them on each other people did get caught in crossfire . The states enacted rico type laws (known in my state as VLAD) went in disarmed the gangs and threw most of them in jail . They were looking at making them wear hot pink prison garb last I heard.

[Jackxxx]

Feelgood, I agree with your rational thinking and your intentions to make everything safer. I believe we all have the best intentions to make everything safer.

The problem here as CUSP points out, no matter how much you ban guns or put control on them, the bad guys will always get them anyways. They will be available in the black market just like you can find any drug in the black market. Thats the problem.

Looking at statistics in Europe or Australia on guns control doesn't help us because as I pointed out before, we share a huge border with mexico which is a catastrophe of a country. A disgrace for north America. If we were an island like Australia or New Zealand, it would be a different story. But its not. Everything that is illegal here can easily come in through mexico to a huge black market which the government profit from it keeping thousands of federal agents employed.

In our reality, the second amendment doesn't kill anybody. Evil kills people. Thats why I mentioned earlier that before I was all for making it harder for everybody to get a gun. But then came to the conclusion that it wont work in our country due to the reasons exposed above.

Now if Trump gets elected and he does indeed build the wall and stop the vast majority of all kind of influx from mexico, THEN and ONLY THEN we can plan things in a whole different way. Not only with guns, but many other things too. Mexico is an obstacle for the north american continent in every single aspect.

[Tamora]

So...what are the known FACTS about this guy? Is he another fruitcake, or does he have proven ties to IS and extreme Islamic views?

[Pegasus]

So...what are the known FACTS about this guy? Is he another fruitcake, or does he have proven ties to IS and extreme Islamic views?

My understanding is that he had no actual ties with Isis but followed them on the net . He swore allegiance to isis during his attack.
How much being just another crazy and how much actual terrorist in the pure sense comes up regularly. A look into the background of these people often reveals the same sort of crazy as in other mass killers.

[kickinthemebs]

No link to Isis, just a self-proclaimed Islamic jihadist, as Isis sympathiser.

I have seen some ridiculous shit in the media after all of this. Liberals are blaming conservatives for this?! Bizarre. Also, Christianity even got blamed for it a few times. And Islamophobia was given as a reason for it. Batshit crazy world we are living in. I even saw a Black Lives Matter activist take over the stage and went on a rant about white people during a speech for those killed; very fucking rude. I wouldn't consider myself a liberal or conservative, but the idiocy of most liberals makes me sick.