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Big Al · 07-28-2016, 01:14 PM

"Hard flaccid" is a symptom of something- not a cause. It's like saying "ED"- which stands for Erectile Dysfunction- and can be caused by any number or combination of factors.

closed267 · 07-28-2016, 01:44 PM

I have no idea what hard flaccid is, that is why I also asked here. But I agree that a flaccid penis can change! After sports or when I bend m flaccid penis with my hand it can start getting harder. Also when standing up, mine flaccid penis feels bit harder than when sitting, but not always, sometimes it is even softer, so yes it varies a lot

delts · 07-28-2016, 02:12 PM

yeah, i think both your posts are what i'm trying to get at guys.

It seems like no-one has any concrete description of what this so-called thing even is.

There also seems to be tonnes of posts or threads with guys saying stuff like "i've GOT hard flaccid" or "how can i get rid of HF" or "i'm scared i've got HF, how long to get rid of it, what if it does some serious damage"

People seem to talk like it's a condition or injury in and of itself. To me it seems like at worst it may, in some cases, be a symptom of an injury. But even then it's just a protection thing.

And it also seems like in many cases it's maybe just an exaggerated or more regular occurrence of what the body would do anyway to protect itself.

Sorry if this is already common knowledge among the more regular posters, i just came across so many posts where people were freaking out as if they had this dreaded condition, and it made no sense to me!

SuperDude · 07-28-2016, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by Big Al View Post

"Hard flaccid" is a symptom of something- not a cause. It's like saying "ED"- which stands for Erectile Dysfunction- and can be caused by any number or combination of factors.

Do you think the pelvic floor can have delayed onset muscle soreness the same as other muscle groups of the body?

delts · 07-29-2016, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by SuperDude View Post

Do you think the pelvic floor can have delayed onset muscle soreness the same as other muscle groups of the body?

I wouldn't have thought so.

I'm sure it can fatigue if overused. But DOMS occurs in muscles which are rarely used to much extent and then undergo a sudden increase in volume and activity. Like when someone first starts training at the gym properly. Or when someone starts a new training program with a sudden increase in volume on a certain muscle.

DOMS doesn't usually last long once someone sticks at that new program and is eating correctly for recovery. And DOMS is NOT an indicator of growth/strength/improvement. It's a sign of a sudden change.

The pelvic floor isn't like other muscle groups in that it contracts and relaxes much more involuntarily. It is 'being used' all the time to maintain intra-abdominal pressure. As such, even with a sudden program of kegels etc, i doubt you'd ever get genuine DOMS like you'd get after a new program of squats where you can barely walk down the stairs after. You also can't really 'add weight' to the pelvic floor exercises, so again i think it would be difficult to over-stimulate it enough to get real DOMS.

Big Al · 07-29-2016, 10:08 AM

Extra care should be taken when training the PF muscles. These muscles are used for vital tasks like elimination and stabilizing. When these muscles are overtrained, it can be difficult for them to heal.

Stamina should be a priority for these muscles. Once a foundation has been built, more strenuous training can be used with good effect.

closed267 · 07-29-2016, 11:10 AM

I guess I dont habe hf. When standing it feels a bit firmer but not too much,i can still bend or squueze it

mikecares · 07-29-2016, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by delts View Post

I've been reading about HF more recently, and i've come to the conclusion that it really isn't even a thing. At least not in the way many people seem to see it anyway. But i will explain my thoughts more and i wonder what others think too maybe?

The penis isn't like most body parts. It's size and shape changes all the time due to blood flow and hormonal responses. It's well known that during times of fear or anxiety the fight/flight response kicks in and the penis will turtle right up. This turtling, from what i understand, is very similar to how most people experience HF. While true fight/flight situations don't occur often in daily life - we all experience all kinds of stress/anxiety all the time which can trigger similar hormonal responses.

The other part of this is a pelvic floor imbalance/tension. A huge percentage of people have some major strength imbalances all throughout the body due to the sedentary, 'sitting down' way we live these days. Most people have no strength or decent mobility in most of their body - and the pelvic floor is no exception. (In fact the pelvis/hips/glutes are usually the tightest, weakest most immobile messed up area of most peoples' bodies).

Put these 2 things together and you have a mixture of too much tension in the PC muscles (and a lot of the body), and a state of stress/tension/anxiety that a lot more people are suffering from in this day and age than even realise. You end up with guys who, for whatever reason, are experiencing stress or anxiety - even if they're not hugely aware of even feeling that way. This automatically causes the fight/flight response. Blood flow to the penis slows right down causing turtling. At the same time most of the muscles in the body - including the PC ones - tighten right up as they do when anxious/stressed. For this to happen to muscles that are already super tight is obviously not good. You'll have these crazy tight, spasming PC muscles trying to lift the penis back up into your lungs!

So now you have a penis with no blood going to it, and some damn tight muscles drawing it in/up too - what's that gonna look/feel like?!

In addition, some people will be a lot more susceptible to these stresses and anxieties than others. Some guys are very laid back and almost emotionally detached. Other guys - particularly maybe the kinds of guys that find themselves on a site devoted to sexual and penis improvement(!) - are probably pretty anxious about these kinds of things. They are also much more tuned into their bodies, but also more emotionally/hormonally responsive in general.

It seems to me that if you put these things together a lot of guys might experience what has become known as Hard Flaccid. For me the dangerous part is in labelling it an 'injury'. I think it's much more likely just the body's natural response to certain situations occurring more often than some guys would like. And in some guys it seems to happen chronically so. That is no reason to label it an injury, cause even more anxiety and tension and speed up the whole vicious cycle even more.

I mean, the penis does change all the time doesn't it? I know mine is damn different if i'm out in the cold, or if i've been for a run/done intense exercise etc - the damn thing disappears! But i believe that's just pretty normal. Add in the muscle tension and stress factors and yes, you might have a small, flaccid yet tense feeling penis. But that doesn't mean it's injured!

This isn't to say it's not an awkward situation for some guys who are already very conscious about the size/fitness of their penis - to then see it turtling and tight/firm when they think it shouldn't be. But calling it an injury sets a whole crazy precedent that it's something that needs to be fixed right away or may cause crazy mounts of harm. All the talk of resting the penis, abstaining for long periods etc - all these will do is increase anxiety and exacerbate the issue.

It can be no coincidence that so many guys with so-called HF have visited docs and urologists to be told they're all fine. And if you google HF there's barely a single genuine medical acknowledgement of it.

If you'd rather not have a turtling, firm little scaredy-penis at times and want to change that, then i'd say there are things to do about it:

- all over body training, mobility, strength etc. Particuarly on the PC/pelvis area. Maybe see a PT of some kind. Some myofascial release etc etc.

- Reverse Kegels!!

- therapy/mindfulness/meditation etc! There's no doubt in my mind a lot of this is psychological more than just physical. And a few quick sessions don't do much good - long term therapy can do phenomenal things for even those who consider themselves pretty well adjusted. It's not about being a crazy, weak person - just the opposite, it's about being fully aware of yourself.

- scrap the supplements/medicinal fixes - even if they help at all (which i doubt) they're papering over the cracks at best.

I'd bet a lot of guys who have suffered from HF have also had Pre-E, delayed-E, ED and other penis/sex related anxieties at times too.

Some people will no doubt say they experience HF and aren't anxious or stressed etc. But to be honest i would doubt that whole heartedly. Why are we all on a site like this is we haven't experienced some kind of anxiety about this stuff. People are in denial about these kinds of feelings all the time, doesn't mean they're not there.

Also, it doesn't need to be anxiety to the level of major attacks; even work related stress will be causing serious muscle tension. Even pure inactivity and lifestyle will cause huge muscle tension too.

Anway, just putting it out there as i hate to see so many guys panicking that they have irreversibly damaged their penises when in fact nothing is wrong with them!

I think most people here know its not an injury. Most people have gotten it from jelqing here (I got it from massaging my penis, which is similar) and experience other symptoms that are more annoying: there erections are much more rigid, there head doesn't fill all the the time AND they have HF. These are probably symptoms of pelvic floor issues or something that happen to the penis during jelqing, but it's hard to say for sure as many treatment options haven't worked consistently. Ive had it for a year and a bit and I've been living with it just fine; I have sex and I have a gf so it doesn't really bother me (the EQ can be iffy here and there, but nothing worrisome)....but its hard to pinpoint the definite cause as many people do not respond to all the treatment options. I, for example, live a normal life and do all my daily things without really thinking about the problem and I still got it while you have MANY members on here who won't even attempt to have sex with a girl or let alone talk to one and they still have it despite attempting to treat it.

Many people have tried the PT stuff, reverse kegals, massage or trigger point therapy, meditation stuff, etc...but there doesn't seem to be any consistency in the effectiveness of these treatments. And you cannot say its purely anxiety related when it was caused by a physical matter. There really needs to be more research done and more people getting involved to figure out whats going in. In my personal opinion, its a very mild problem with some comfortable side effects and because the penis is nearly 100% functional, its not a huge issue that might warrant the involvement of research....I think the people here just get freaked out and scared to death that there penis is all hard and firm at rest.

Pegasus · 07-29-2016, 05:48 PM

Ok op your first post is what I have been saying onsite for some time . Now if you can just get the guys with hf to believe it they can get the right treatment . The head issue part of Hf is very difficult to treat and most seem to actively resist treatment .
The physical part is often bought on by some trauma such as kegeling too much. This of course would usually be fairly simple to treat except for the head issues.

delts · 07-29-2016, 06:31 PM

pegasus - agree totally. As for the head issues being hard to treat, that's the saddest thing of all - not in the context of HF but with any emotional stuff. People are so resistant to talking about these things properly. A huge amount of people are barely aware of their feelings at all. I'll stop now before i really go off on one!

mikecares - i wasn't saying it's purely anxiety at all. I said there's both a physical and mental side to it.

The more i read about the supposed indicators/symptoms to describe what HF even is, the more i really don't think it's even a thing in the slightest. It seems that some guys want their penis to always be exactly the same. Whether that's flaccid or hard they want those 2 things to be the same with no variation in between it sounds like.

Obviously people want to avoid injuring themselves and inducing a turtled/firm penis that's gone into a withdrawn, healing protective mode wherever possible.

But it's really sad/unfortunate to me that some guys are so hung up on the fact that sometimes their flaccid is smaller and firmer, sometimes their erection isn't as hard or full. The penis changes, all the time! It's a fluid system - literally! It will always have all manor of variation depending on numerous physiological factors. None of that means anything is wrong or needs treating whatsoever.

Unless i'm really missing some part of HF? Please say if i am? To me it seems like some kind of internet myth where a group of guys who are naturally quite anxious about their penises have started reading too much into every little change in it and then given it a name.

I don't mean this to sound aggressive or dismissive at all, i simply don't get what the issue is even supposed to be now! lol.

Sometimes my flaccid is small and firm, sometimes it's loose, bigger and softer. I guarantee the small/firm state is when i have some kind of stress or anxiety going on.

Sometimes my erections are somehow smaller or less full feeling with a really tight PC, sometimes they're much bigger and fuller and harder with more relaxed PC. Again, same scenario with mental state.

No-one will ever make me think there's some kind of issue underneath with those things though, it's just part of the body and it changes for all sorts of reasons.

Again, maybe i'm really missing some key description of what "HF" even is though, if so - i'm sorry to sound so dismissive.

Pegasus · 07-29-2016, 06:44 PM

Ok in the interests of not being dismissive .
While there is underlying head issues that generate this issue the guy is often unaware of them. He then has a physical issue which causes a physical problem bingo he thinks it is purely physical . He freaks out as is his nature putting himself in a death spiral .
The nature of the physical injury varies a bit but in general a specific spasm of the pelvic floor causes a restriction of blood flow and nerve impulse into the penis . This results in a number of possible effects which tend to be ongoing .
So ongoing small hard flaccid , difficulty with erection ,smaller erection,pain etc ,these issues tend to be ongoing for years and not just part of the normal flux /range of penis response . As stated the therapy for the physical side is relatively straightforward however the guy is now freaked out and the ongoing anxiety tends to re spasm the pelvic floor leading to difficulty creating an ongoing cure.

delts · 07-29-2016, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by Pegasus View Post

Ok in the interests of not being dismissive .
While there is underlying head issues that generate this issue the guy is often unaware of them. He then has a physical issue which causes a physical problem bingo he thinks it is purely physical . He freaks out as is his nature putting himself in a death spiral .
The nature of the physical injury varies a bit but in general a specific spasm of the pelvic floor causes a restriction of blood flow and nerve impulse into the penis . This results in a number of possible effects which tend to be ongoing .
So ongoing small hard flaccid , difficulty with erection ,smaller erection,pain etc ,these issues tend to be ongoing for years and not just part of the normal flux /range of penis response . As stated the therapy for the physical side is relatively straightforward however the guy is now freaked out and the ongoing anxiety tends to re spasm the pelvic floor leading to difficulty creating an ongoing cure.

OK thanks that clears up some of it for me. I can see how having those things all the time and ongoing would become such an issue.

From there i guess we go back to the first posts though, that it becoming such a big deal and worry will unfortunately only exacerbate the issue.

I think in this case that HF is like 90% mental, 10% physical. And even then as you point out the physical reaction/spasm is often caused by the tension and anxiety underneath.

Going on your description of it i'd say i could make a case for having HF on and off for most of my life. I think some of it is an imbalance of the pelvic floor. But mainly an anxiety issue, which usually causes the spasm/physical issue too.

Incidentally the same issues, anxiety and that spasm/pelvic floor imbalance, also gave me Pre-E. The times i'm much more in control of both are when i'm much freer of anxiety, and when i do a lot of reverse kegels and simply improve the mind/muscle connection with the PC muscle. With some practice it's easy to reverse kegel, breathe deep and slow and let the spasm drift away.

Pegasus · 07-29-2016, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by delts View Post

OK thanks that clears up some of it for me. I can see how having those things all the time and ongoing would become such an issue.

From there i guess we go back to the first posts though, that it becoming such a big deal and worry will unfortunately only exacerbate the issue.

I think in this case that HF is like 90% mental, 10% physical. And even then as you point out the physical reaction/spasm is often caused by the tension and anxiety underneath.

Going on your description of it i'd say i could make a case for having HF on and off for most of my life. I think some of it is an imbalance of the pelvic floor. But mainly an anxiety issue, which usually causes the spasm/physical issue too.

Incidentally the same issues, anxiety and that spasm/pelvic floor imbalance, also gave me Pre-E. The times i'm much more in control of both are when i'm much freer of anxiety, and when i do a lot of reverse kegels and simply improve the mind/muscle connection with the PC muscle. With some practice it's easy to reverse kegel, breathe deep and slow and let the spasm drift away.

Uh huh .
Now off you go and convince hf sufferers , good luck with that .
I like your post and I hope this thread has a positive effect but none so deaf as those that will not hear.

delts · 07-30-2016, 03:45 AM

Originally posted by Pegasus View Post

Uh huh .
Now off you go and convince hf sufferers , good luck with that .
I like your post and I hope this thread has a positive effect but none so deaf as those that will not hear.

haha ok i feel your pain man. Sorry, i haven't read the forum much for a long time and had a look again recently and saw a lot about HF. It got me thinking and i wanted to post.

But looks like i came along to bang the drum you've already beat a hole in!

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