Diaphragmatic breathing vs front and back reverse kegels and when to do them.

[HansTwilight]

There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding belly breathing and reverse kegeling, and I think this is due to the fact that they are very similar in nature. However, it's paramount to understand that they are two different exercises, and they are used for different things, usually.

Belly breathing (diaphragmatic breathing)

Belly breaths are done by breathing in and blowing your belly up like a balloon. Consequently, your pelvic floor will expand as well, this motion is very similar to the isolated reverse kegel, or just reverse kegel. Because of this similar motion, many people with pelvic floor issues tend to get confused as to what they are supposed to do. It is important to understand that belly breathing is not so much an exercise, but a normal human function, meaning anyone can do it. It is the default way a human breathes, and it is actually an integral part in the condition known as pelvic floor hypertonia or tension in the pelvic floor muscles. So to clarify, the problem isn't in the tense pelvic floor inasmuch as the improper breathing patterns.
Therefore, if one has pelvic floor hypertonia it is important for them to do belly breathing to retrain the breathing patterns, not so much the pelvic floor. The retraining of the muscles is the byproduct of the breathing techniques. This is why pelvic floor physios put so much emphasis on belly breaths and not isolating the reverse kegel. In fact, isolating reverse kegels should be avoided when you have an overactive pelvic floor. This goes back to the breathing patterns, reverse kegeling doesn't retrain the breathing patters -the principle problem. Consequently, it has its place in other areas.

What to do

When doing the stretching and squatting, one should focus solely on their belly and not so much their pelvic floor. As mentioned previously, the pelvic floor motion is a byproduct of the breathing. The other thing to keep in mind is to do the entire motion, making sure that you are breathing in and also out, and not cutting the motion short. This will take some practice and a lot of focus and therefor the breathing should also be done without any distractions whatsoever. Close your eyes and mindfully focus on the belly and breath, making sure to get the entire motion. This is also a form of meditation- and added plus. Failure to adhere to this will result in only partial alleviation of symptoms and not full alleviation.



Isolated Reverse Kegels (later on)


These are more advanced and should only be done when you are 100% symptom free. The front reverse kegels involves the BC muscle and the back involves the PC muscle. These exercises are usually done when doing MMO (Male Multiple Orgasm) and other Premature Ejaculation treatment techniques. However despite all this, it is not uncommon for people with pelvic floor tension to have the wrong mentality about treating the muscles and, for example, to think, "well, since my rectum is tense, I should do back reverse kegels." This would seem to work in theory but again, it doesn't solve the actual problem which is the faulty breathing habits. Another reason to do reverse kegels is during stimulation if you are trying to retrain the muscles, but personally, I have found that treating the tense pelvic floor makes this easier.







Hopefully this helps. I know a lot of people talk about doing front and back reverse kegels when having pelvic floor tension but being a sufferer myself (assuming they aren't) and having recovered, I find that they are not helpful and can hinder progress.

[troublehshooter]

This certainly alters the way I will approach these exercises, very helpful information, thank you.

[HansTwilight]

Your welcome

[Hopelesss]

So are you saying just hindi squat breathing without trying to push down pelvic floor?

[HansTwilight]

So are you saying just hindi squat breathing without trying to push down pelvic floor?

When squatting, just do a belly breath. The pf motion happens as a result, don't try to assist it. The whole motion should be completed via breathing only.

[ACPreE]

Interesting. Why do you feel like Rks dont matter? I can understand that breathing helps a bit but not to the point it overshadows rks and pf work. Where iv seen some do things out of order is trying to stretch and edge before apt is corrected.

Haven't you done extensive rk work?

Just trying to understand differences to my understanding. I do a bit of work and have clearly felt an expansion in the space between relaxed and tense. I subconsciously kegel but not as much anymore. I would hold a slight kegel all day long and kegel when sex and masturbation. Retraining that reflex I couldnt see being done with breathing alone.

Would like to see in a little more detail because I dont quite understand.

[HansTwilight]

Interesting. Why do you feel like Rks dont matter? I can understand that breathing helps a bit but not to the point it overshadows rks and pf work. Where iv seen some do things out of order is trying to stretch and edge before apt is corrected.

Haven't you done extensive rk work?

Just trying to understand differences to my understanding. I do a bit of work and have clearly felt an expansion in the space between relaxed and tense. I subconsciously kegel but not as much anymore. I would hold a slight kegel all day long and kegel when sex and masturbation. Retraining that reflex I couldnt see being done with breathing alone.

Would like to see in a little more detail because I dont quite understand.

I may not have been clear, but my only rk work was during stimulation.
I probably should have specified, but if you are trying to eliminate iks during sex/stimulation, then you can RK. If you are retraining your pelvic floor, rks are not going to do it because retaining your breathing patters is what is required to maintain that relaxation.
Rks have diminishing returns in hypertonic pelvic floor if you aren't belly breathing and can hinder progress. So therefore they should be avoided until your pf has been recovered. The can help initially, but if they are overdone it will not retrain the muscles properly.

I just know in my experience, I got hypertonic pelvic floor a 2nd time from iks while having sex and i couldn't cut the Iks out until I retrained my pelvic floor via belly breaths. When I started doing rks (focused more on back rks), i lost progress, now after doing belly breathing I am much better and have way less iks during sex/ masturbation. In fact, it was nearly impossible for me to not ik during sex when i my pf was so tense. This might just be my experience however, but it makes perfect sense to me, I never reverse kegeled my way to relief, it was all in the belly breathing.

What all did you have/how did you treat it?

Also note that no where in my work does it ever tell you to reverse kegel in place of belly breathing, if it does then I will edit it.

[ACPreE]

Ah I see how you could come to that conclusion.
I have APT, (tight quads, weak core/lower abs, tight back) Improved it greatly so far with 5-6 days of leg lifts and working that issue.
I saw the most dramatic changes in my stamina when I introduced Core work and Upped my RKs as i incorporated them in my other stretches/workouts that dont require the PF for support.

I do practice triangular breathing while doing Hindi squats but at the up most breath I also push a RK to intensify the natural expansion feeling from the deep belly breathing.

I did Stretching almost daily, RK work almost daily (not as intense as now but conditioning was required) Edging few days a week for a while. Introduced breathing and self awareness somewhere in the middle of my 8 month recovery. But my times still ranged between 2pumps and 30seconds.

Currently I haven't focused on the breathing aspect but focused mainly on the Core/ab work, RKs and stretching. Fixing the APT is crucial. That is why i was curious. Breathing i can see be a must for controlling high arousal and anxiety and the natural pf inflation and deflation from belly breathing is good for retraining the PF to work as its supposed to.

That is just my experience, wanted to just bounce thoughts around because i know my stamina has improved from this method. Not doubting there are other ways to recover but just brainstorming. I just know now I can last a lot longer then 2 pumps and I finish after my gf. Nothing more i could ask for.

[HansTwilight]

Ah I see how you could come to that conclusion.
I have APT, (tight quads, weak core/lower abs, tight back) Improved it greatly so far with 5-6 days of leg lifts and working that issue.
I saw the most dramatic changes in my stamina when I introduced Core work and Upped my RKs as i incorporated them in my other stretches/workouts that dont require the PF for support.

I do practice triangular breathing while doing Hindi squats but at the up most breath I also push a RK to intensify the natural expansion feeling from the deep belly breathing.

I did Stretching almost daily, RK work almost daily (not as intense as now but conditioning was required) Edging few days a week for a while. Introduced breathing and self awareness somewhere in the middle of my 8 month recovery. But my times still ranged between 2pumps and 30seconds.

Currently I haven't focused on the breathing aspect but focused mainly on the Core/ab work, RKs and stretching. Fixing the APT is crucial. That is why i was curious. Breathing i can see be a must for controlling high arousal and anxiety and the natural pf inflation and deflation from belly breathing is good for retraining the PF to work as its supposed to.

That is just my experience, wanted to just bounce thoughts around because i know my stamina has improved from this method. Not doubting there are other ways to recover but just brainstorming. I just know now I can last a lot longer then 2 pumps and I finish after my gf. Nothing more i could ask for.

Interesting, my experiences were totally different, though I don't think I have APT, just tight heel cords. Perhaps writing a thread about APT and Rking could be helpful,
When you write it I will add it to https://www.pegym.com/forums/penile-...-syndrome.html

[DickerSchwanz]

Hans, superb work to explain this in a very clear way!

Isolations can create a lot of problems resulting in imbalance. Truth is many people don't have the mindset to do it right and will fuck it up.
The whole "do your kegels" craze that's now everywhere, with people doing unfocused unbalanced kegels in their car etc. has also created lots of problems and I think could be one of the reasons for the hard flaccid epidemic.
The old school guys in PE forums promoted kegels and other stuff cause they assumed everyone applies common sense and takes personal responsibility.

I would propose to add a second stage after the belly breathing is established..
Focusing awareness to consciously expand the breath into the pelvic floor. I imagine a deflated balloon inside my PF that I fill up.
Another problem is people solely focusing on the front side of their belly and pelvic floor. A full belly breath will not only expand the belly but also the lower back.
A full "pelvic floor breath" will expand the whole area up to the tailbone.

When I first opened my PF up that way, my tailbone literally jumped up and out of a locked state.
When I do a full pelvic floor breath now it feels like my tailbone is wiggling like a dogs tail .

Only from there I was able to use the isolated exercises, like you detailed in your other threads so nicely. Before I did for several years all kinds of kegel exercises with a tight and suppressed PF. Only now I can use the full range of an isolated kegel. Before it was like someone sitting on your biceps while you do bicep curls. You know it, everything down there is connected. A tight asshole will mess with front kegels