Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Venous leak is a misnomer

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Venous leak is a misnomer

    Why venous leak is a symptom not a condition in itself.

    📷
    I see a lot of new guys coming here ,afraid that this may be a venous leak.I just want to state that in my opinion venous leak is a symptom not a disease.In this post i will try to prove my point.So the main theory with venous leak is that something in the vein (valves ?)becomes dysfunctional and that leads to more blood going out of the penis during an erection.This of course comes with difficulty maintaining an erection.


    Now first i want to say that it is the job of the vein to return blood to the heart.The valves' function is to PUSH blood to the heart not keep it in a given area of the body.This is why people with thrombosed veins (with dysfunctional valves) have massive veins,most commonly found in the legs,that keep blood in the area and do not return it to the heart.If the veins were dyfunctional they would have trouble returning blood,not keeping it there.

    So the physiology of the male erection is that during tumescence the penis is filled with blood,this fills the capilary beds and the cavernosal bodies that push against the tunica albuginea and the veins situated there and thus keep blood from returning to the body.So as you can see it is the cavernosal bodies and cappilary beds that determine the strength of the erection by pressing against the veins and preventing them from returning blood to the heart.You can see how in people with arterial insufficiency,heart problems and atherosclerosis this can lead to trouble filling the penis with blood,thus trouble pushing against the veins and preventing outflow.

    A very important element is forgotten here,however.We talked about the vascular side of erections,we talked about the connective tissue side (tunica albuginea).We however completely forgot the muscular side of the equation.The penis is after all nearly 50% smooth muscle.



    The strength of an erection relies upon all these factors.And it also is determined by one small muscle called -the ischiocavernosus.This muscle is sadly completely and unfairly forgotten when speaking about the male erection.It is the job of this muscle to press on the crura of the penis and prevent venous outflow thus maintaining tumescence.



    https://www.nature.com/articles/3900730.pdf?origin=ppub
    - While it is widely accepted that hemodynamicchange in the corpus cavernosum is necessary for production and maintenance of erection, the mechanism of venous outflow regulation is still subject to controversy. Involvement of the ICM in the process of penile rigidity was suggested as long as a hundred years ago. Some researchers have emphasized the vascular system as a unique mechanism capable of producing outflow resistance,while others say that contraction of the ICM is necessary to attain enough outflow resistance. In animal experiments intracavernous pressure exceeded systolic blood pressure in rigid erection, but this high pressure was decreased by anesthesia of the muscles. Therefore, although the hemodynamic mechanism was essential for erection, it seems the ICM was also important. Our data showed that the contractile capacity of the ICM in ED patients is significantly lower than that of potent controls, thussupporting the involvement of the ICM in the process of erection.




    Now before Viagra came out and made billions docors were trying to test whether rehabilitating the pelvic floor will have an effect on erection.The results were promising.You can see :

    The role of biofeedback in the rehabilitation of veno-occlusive erectile dysfunction Al-Helow MR, Abdul-Hady H, Fathalla MM, Zakaria MA, Hussein O, El Gahndour T - Egypt Rheumatol Rehabil-In this medical article 50% of those DIAGNOSED with venous leak recovered after pelvic floor exercises.




    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8435738/
    -This is another article that comes to the conclusion that after pelvic floor training 75% of the people with proven venous leak scheduled for surgery for erectile dysfunction,resolved or massively improved their condition.The 25% who did not experience this improvement either did not stick to the regimen or dropped out due to personal reasons.Sadly i can not find the full article i read a few months ago.In this abstract the information is criminally reduced.It is said that while 50%resolved another 25% had such improvement that they refused surgery.The authors also noted that the results would have been better if it was not for a large part of people dropping out.





    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1324914/
    - This study is particularly interesting.It used kegels to treat venous leakage**(kegels are not advised if you have hard flaccid ).** With a clinical improvement of 6.74 points on the erectile function domain of the IIEF, the intervention group showed a significant improvement (P = 0.004) in erectile function compared with the control group after 3 months. The control group showed no significant increase in erectile function following lifestyle changes (P = 0.658), but a highly significant increase following intervention at 6 months (P<0.001). At 6 months, there was clinical improvement of 9.88 points on the erectile function domain of the IIEF for the intervention group and 10.94 points for men initially assigned to the control group.



    After 3 months of intervention and 3 months of pelvic floor exercises, 40.0% of all participants had attained normal function, 34.5% had improved, and 25.5% failed to improve.


    In this trial the median age of the participants was 59.2 years and much higher than the subjects in all the other trials.7-9,17,21 The duration and severity of erectile dysfunction were not predictors of the results of therapy in this trial. The number of participants who withdrew from the trial was a concern, although a high drop-out rate has been reported previously in this type of study18 and may reflect the embarrassment and unease suffered by this cohort of men or possibly the commitment involved in performing daily exercises. However, some of the men who withdrew from the study did so because they had achieved normal erectile function.


    All participants who received the allocated intervention reported completion of their pelvic floor home exercise regime. All men were able to achieve a penile retraction and scrotal lift during training with pelvic floor muscle exercises, although, initially, this response was often difficult and slow. As muscle strength improved, this response was initiated at a faster rate. Examination of individual cases revealed the return of self-reported nocturnal erections following 1–4 weeks of pelvic floor muscle exercises and prior to regaining erectile function.



    The results of this trial may have been more impressive
    if men with severe low back pain, addiction to alcohol, cardiovascular disease, diabetes mellitus, Peyronie's disease, and bilateral orchidectomies had been excluded in the first instance.





    This is all to show you that the common symptom of not being able to maintain your erction is probably caused by the tense and probably weak ischocavernosus.To all new members stop worrying about venous leakage since it is a misnomer.The problem is NOT in the vein-the vein does the job it has to do-it returns the blood back to the heart.Focus on the muscles (specifically the ischiocavernosus) around the penis by relieveing tension ( erect reverse kegels are helpful) and strengthening.





    Edit :Here is my main theory in which i write what causes hard flaccid and how to relieve it by strengthening a key muscle,make sure to read the links especially the ones connected to training the ic muscle :https://www.reddit.com/r/Hard_Flacci...ry_about_hard/


  • #2
    Originally posted by Robson1444 View Post
    Why venous leak is a symptom not a condition in itself.

    📷
    I see a lot of new guys coming here ,afraid that this may be a venous leak.I just want to state that in my opinion venous leak is a symptom not a disease.In this post i will try to prove my point.So the main theory with venous leak is that something in the vein (valves ?)becomes dysfunctional and that leads to more blood going out of the penis during an erection.This of course comes with difficulty maintaining an erection.


    Now first i want to say that it is the job of the vein to return blood to the heart.The valves' function is to PUSH blood to the heart not keep it in a given area of the body.This is why people with thrombosed veins (with dysfunctional valves) have massive veins,most commonly found in the legs,that keep blood in the area and do not return it to the heart.If the veins were dyfunctional they would have trouble returning blood,not keeping it there.

    So the physiology of the male erection is that during tumescence the penis is filled with blood,this fills the capilary beds and the cavernosal bodies that push against the tunica albuginea and the veins situated there and thus keep blood from returning to the body.So as you can see it is the cavernosal bodies and cappilary beds that determine the strength of the erection by pressing against the veins and preventing them from returning blood to the heart.You can see how in people with arterial insufficiency,heart problems and atherosclerosis this can lead to trouble filling the penis with blood,thus trouble pushing against the veins and preventing outflow.

    A very important element is forgotten here,however.We talked about the vascular side of erections,we talked about the connective tissue side (tunica albuginea).We however completely forgot the muscular side of the equation.The penis is after all nearly 50% smooth muscle.



    The strength of an erection relies upon all these factors.And it also is determined by one small muscle called -the ischiocavernosus.This muscle is sadly completely and unfairly forgotten when speaking about the male erection.It is the job of this muscle to press on the crura of the penis and prevent venous outflow thus maintaining tumescence.



    https://www.nature.com/articles/3900730.pdf?origin=ppub
    - While it is widely accepted that hemodynamicchange in the corpus cavernosum is necessary for production and maintenance of erection, the mechanism of venous outflow regulation is still subject to controversy. Involvement of the ICM in the process of penile rigidity was suggested as long as a hundred years ago. Some researchers have emphasized the vascular system as a unique mechanism capable of producing outflow resistance,while others say that contraction of the ICM is necessary to attain enough outflow resistance. In animal experiments intracavernous pressure exceeded systolic blood pressure in rigid erection, but this high pressure was decreased by anesthesia of the muscles. Therefore, although the hemodynamic mechanism was essential for erection, it seems the ICM was also important. Our data showed that the contractile capacity of the ICM in ED patients is significantly lower than that of potent controls, thussupporting the involvement of the ICM in the process of erection.




    Now before Viagra came out and made billions docors were trying to test whether rehabilitating the pelvic floor will have an effect on erection.The results were promising.You can see :

    The role of biofeedback in the rehabilitation of veno-occlusive erectile dysfunction Al-Helow MR, Abdul-Hady H, Fathalla MM, Zakaria MA, Hussein O, El Gahndour T - Egypt Rheumatol Rehabil-In this medical article 50% of those DIAGNOSED with venous leak recovered after pelvic floor exercises.




    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8435738/
    -This is another article that comes to the conclusion that after pelvic floor training 75% of the people with proven venous leak scheduled for surgery for erectile dysfunction,resolved or massively improved their condition.The 25% who did not experience this improvement either did not stick to the regimen or dropped out due to personal reasons.Sadly i can not find the full article i read a few months ago.In this abstract the information is criminally reduced.It is said that while 50%resolved another 25% had such improvement that they refused surgery.The authors also noted that the results would have been better if it was not for a large part of people dropping out.





    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1324914/
    - This study is particularly interesting.It used kegels to treat venous leakage**(kegels are not advised if you have hard flaccid ).** With a clinical improvement of 6.74 points on the erectile function domain of the IIEF, the intervention group showed a significant improvement (P = 0.004) in erectile function compared with the control group after 3 months. The control group showed no significant increase in erectile function following lifestyle changes (P = 0.658), but a highly significant increase following intervention at 6 months (P<0.001). At 6 months, there was clinical improvement of 9.88 points on the erectile function domain of the IIEF for the intervention group and 10.94 points for men initially assigned to the control group.



    After 3 months of intervention and 3 months of pelvic floor exercises, 40.0% of all participants had attained normal function, 34.5% had improved, and 25.5% failed to improve.


    In this trial the median age of the participants was 59.2 years and much higher than the subjects in all the other trials.7-9,17,21 The duration and severity of erectile dysfunction were not predictors of the results of therapy in this trial. The number of participants who withdrew from the trial was a concern, although a high drop-out rate has been reported previously in this type of study18 and may reflect the embarrassment and unease suffered by this cohort of men or possibly the commitment involved in performing daily exercises. However, some of the men who withdrew from the study did so because they had achieved normal erectile function.


    All participants who received the allocated intervention reported completion of their pelvic floor home exercise regime. All men were able to achieve a penile retraction and scrotal lift during training with pelvic floor muscle exercises, although, initially, this response was often difficult and slow. As muscle strength improved, this response was initiated at a faster rate. Examination of individual cases revealed the return of self-reported nocturnal erections following 1–4 weeks of pelvic floor muscle exercises and prior to regaining erectile function.



    The results of this trial may have been more impressive
    if men with severe low back pain, addiction to alcohol, cardiovascular disease, diabetes mellitus, Peyronie's disease, and bilateral orchidectomies had been excluded in the first instance.





    This is all to show you that the common symptom of not being able to maintain your erction is probably caused by the tense and probably weak ischocavernosus.To all new members stop worrying about venous leakage since it is a misnomer.The problem is NOT in the vein-the vein does the job it has to do-it returns the blood back to the heart.Focus on the muscles (specifically the ischiocavernosus) around the penis by relieveing tension ( erect reverse kegels are helpful) and strengthening.





    Edit :Here is my main theory in which i write what causes hard flaccid and how to relieve it by strengthening a key muscle,make sure to read the links especially the ones connected to training the ic muscle :https://www.reddit.com/r/Hard_Flacci...ry_about_hard/

    I completely agree with you that venous leak is a bullshit diagnosis, ive been saying it for years and usually somone ends up getting angry with me for saying it. With a bit of education anyone can understand that the venous leak theory just does make sense when you learn how the pelvic floor works. Its simply a symptom of pelvic floor dysfunction.

    Its a shame we have to work this stuff out for ourselves but unfortunately urology is very much still in the dark ages and its full of incompetent dipshit doctors.

    Comment


    • #3
      She doesn't arouse me fully. Now wait a damn second, I have venous leak.

      You never slow down, you never grow old!

      Comment


      • #4
        Recently hemodynamic studies were conducted in both fresh and defrosted human cadavers in which a rigid erection was without exception attainable despite cavernosal tissue having lost its extensibility in cadaveric sinusoids. This implies a rigid penile erection is just a mechanical event and, consequently, that penile veins play a pivotal role in achieving a rigid erection. This is clearly a ramification of endorsing the determinant role of the erection-related veins in human erectile function
        Valued Member of 12+ years at the PEGym
        12/'09 (start) NBP EL - 4.5, EG - 4.4
        12/11 NBPEL - 5.1, MSEG - 5
        01/13 NBPEL - 5.35, MSEG - 5.1
        01/14 NBPEL - 5.35, MSEG - 5.25
        01/16 NBPEL - 5.4, MSEG - 5.5
        Fat Pad = 1+/-

        Real cars have two seats. Everything else is a bus.

        Comment


        • #5
          Veneous leak is a real condition, which can be from a weak IC muscle or from vascular disease.

          If you suffer from vascular disease, than having this condition in indeed part of that disease.

          If you have a weak IC muscle, there are exercises to help. Focusing on pelvic floor therapy can help.

          Pegasus has many great posts and even threads on this subject.

          Good job putting this post together!
          Going an inch and 1/2 deeper than before

          Comment


          • #6
            The interesting point here is that Robson has come to the conclusion that the ic muscle in particular is a leading cause of the diagnosis of venous leak(vl).
            I had also come to that conclusion in regard to at least many vl cases .
            Unfortunately the science on it is still weak and this should still be regarded as ahead of the science .

            It is I believe established that pelvic floor (PF) training can help many cases of ed . If the specific reason for the improvement can be isolated and improved on it can improve the result .
            So I have originally thought in terms of 2 issues re pf related ed being pelvic floor spasm and pf weakness . In recent times I have come to the view that ic is particularly involved with VL , however much ed is not vl related .

            There is an issue with many studies because vl diagnosis is lumped in with other ed . Different forms of ed require different treatment . Some ed is not pf related; of those that are some will benifit from specific ic training and some require a different tack .
            Pegasus
            Administrator
            PE Gym Editor
            PEGym Hero
            Admin of the Month Mar 2015
            Last edited by Pegasus; 01-16-2021, 11:57 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              I invite guys to read and comment on this thread .

              https://www.pegym.com/forums/penile-...tml?highlight=

              Comment


              • #8
                This particular study was done on dead bodies by a chinese doctor who pushes a 10 000 dollar worth of operation called penile vein stripping(from what i read the operation takes about 5 hours in which the doctor basically shuts off your penis veins).Interesetingly enough in one of his studies i read he specifically mentions how his patients were instructed to train their ischiocavernosus and bulbospongiosus muscle by pulling their penis SLIGHTLY and kegeling until they feel a tug.The doctor specifically stated that these muscles have a key role in an erection.The ischiocavernosus is you physiological cock ring -i posted numerous studies basically showing how in people with a PROVEN VENOUS LEAK training the pelvic floor resolved it.There also was a study that explained how this diagnosis is quite unsure especially in regards to young patients.

                As for what you cited again-the study was done on dead muscle.What happens with the body after a person dies is something called rigor mortis.Basically due to the exhaustion of ATP(universal energy bringer in the cell)the muscle tightens for a certain time.So i do not know how exactly he made this study-but if it also involved the ischiocavernosus muscle then due to rigor mortis the ischiocavernosus will naturally constrict the venous outflow and thus maintain an erection.





                BTW THIS POST IS A REPLY TO NOT2BIG WHO POSTED A QUOTE FROM A STUDY BY GENG LONG HSU
                Robson1444
                Banned
                Last edited by Robson1444; 01-17-2021, 11:45 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  It has been long regarded onsite that pelvic floor training can help ed . I have posted on it many times also Big Al and others . The extra links are very welcome . We have never claimed PF as the only cause of ed just one cause .

                  What particularly interests me is your view that the ic is particularly involved especially where vl is concerned.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yes this stems from the research papers i read that basically all isolated the ischiocavernosus muscle as the one who has a key role un tumescence.Again all the pelvic muscles are connected,especially the levator ani.That is why when a person kegels he will almost instantly feel his anus tighten-i have posted about the connection between the external anal sphincter and the ischiocavernosus.
                    Robson1444
                    Banned
                    Last edited by Robson1444; 01-17-2021, 11:46 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Robson1444 View Post
                      Yes this stems from the research papers i read that basically all isolated the ischiocavernosus muscle as the one who has a key role un tumescence.Again all the pelvic muscles are connected,especially the levator ani.That is why when a person kegels he will almost instantly feel his anus tighten-i have posted about the connection between the external anal sphincter and the ischiocavernosus.
                      There seems though little research on the actual training of the ic specifically

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        PE forums are way ahead on all of this..
                        The basic functions of the muscles are known. The rest is 1+1.

                        A cramping bulbocavernosus muscle will mess with the IC muscle. (IC can not work properly as the BC overrides it)
                        Balance, control, strength are needed.

                        HFrec, People get angry at calling VL a b.s. diagnosis cause it's much harder to find a way to train the PF than getting the doc do some operation while asleep.

                        Remember.. Veins are there to leak blood out of organs..
                        25cm! Let's go!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          https://youtu.be/Lle3kHGjJ6c is it right way how to train ic muscle?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Ok so we are going with, little in the way of really direct studies or really direct scientific evidence, but there is some and it makes a lot of sense physically . A lot of indirect science supporting also.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by HFrecovering View Post
                              I completely agree with you that venous leak is a bullshit diagnosis, ive been saying it for years and usually somone ends up getting angry with me for saying it. With a bit of education anyone can understand that the venous leak theory just does make sense when you learn how the pelvic floor works. Its simply a symptom of pelvic floor dysfunction.

                              Its a shame we have to work this stuff out for ourselves but unfortunately urology is very much still in the dark ages and its full of incompetent dipshit doctors.
                              Diet is the issue. sugar standard american death diet..


                              Erectile dysfunction is a punishment by nature for eating fruits and vegetables....

                              meat is your natural diet ....

                              i went from 80% fruits and vegetables. to 80% animal food based diet ...

                              100% hardness just after a couple of weeks... only 3 times out of 56 days, it was hard to get "hard"...


                              most people would be like oh shit thats a lot of cholesterol, after a bit of research every cell in the body is made from it including ALL hormones ..



                              The bigger question is why do doctors want us to avoid it like the plague? The answer to that is the can't make money off you if your not sick...

                              it pretty much cures most mental issues (i.e depression)and boosts your testosterone.. boosted to steroid level i.e 700 range...


                              I bet everyone is still brainwashed from the food pyramid poster shown in school. you trust this as being the "truth"..

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X