The true mechanics of growth and the correct thinking for growth.

[CBateman]

what if my penis is exactly the same size flaccid after the light hanging than before?
Would love to hear from others what they have experienced (especially if the gained from vacuum hanging).

[madyogi]

There's a TON to digest in this post, and I have a lot of thoughts, but I'll start with a few quick responses.

ALL this thread is about is that GAINS IS ALL ABOUT A STRETCHED OUT STATE of the dick and that obvertraining is resulting in the exact opposite.

As far as the theory from OP goes, overtraining is a problem. However, this notion that there is no tissue deformation or hypertrophy/hyperplasia involved seems off. The tunica is fibrous tissue, fibrous tissue behaves in predictible ways under stress, as others here have pointed out. One such behavior is the creation of new myofibrils. Smooth muscle tissue also exhibits a similar response to mechanical stress - here is one example of smooth muscle hypertrophy in vascular tissue.

Many of the points you make are fine, but there's no need to throw out the science just to tell people to take it easy. The Stress-Strain curve and its relation to soft tissue is real, and it can explain both growth and injury/setback due to overdoing it. Digesting TGC Theory has also helped me understand the relationship between girth work and length work, and how EQ can ebb and flow over one's PE career as the tunica and smooth muscle in the penis change over time.

Of course, none of these things I'm saying run counter to what you're generally suggesting in terms of routine, but they do disagree with your categorical statement that there is no tissue deformation or hyperplasia involved.

Has anyone ever experimented with programs that aren't a constant tension from day to day? For instance, day 1 might be pushing max tolerances, but the rest of the training week is light. Or maybe heavy-light-rest-repeat.

I've designed programs in other areas of physical training around this "pulsed intensity" principle and they've all worked quite well, but those were for skeletal muscle, not collagenous tissues and smooth muscle. It seems to keep the training effect of heavy lifting going without the detraining effect of having 6 rest days between.

I have experimented with pulsed or waving intensities and had great luck with it. See the first post in my progress log for links to more details. I'm ramping back up after an extended break and would be interested in sharing some ideas with you about optimizing such a pulsed routine.

Great discussion so far.

[TeoDeles]

Ok if gains are not just a stretched out state then explain:

1) Why overtraining is leading to no gains?( overtraining would also be creating microtears and plastic defo IF they existed)
2) Why some members that are training so hard and constistently with the known PE templates they end up with no gains at all?
3) If the microtears and the plastic defo(scientistic things) were indeed happening on the dick then why scientists deny that PE is possible?
4) How is possible for members to enlarge their dicks 1,5 inches with just 5 mins of light manual stretching and 10 mins of light jelqing?( not enough time under tension for microtears not enough intensity for plastic defo to happen)

You see ALL of the above questions can be answered with ONLY 1 answer.
That PE is all about a stretched out state of the dick parts that are elongating longer and thicker when the blood is entering during erection.

If you try to answer these questions by the microtears and plastic defo theories you will hit the wall in al of the above questions.
I am playing the devils advocate here... so thing about it..

[CBateman]

Ok if gains are not just a stretched out state then explain:

1) Why overtraining is leading to no gains?( overtraining would also be creating microtears and plastic defo IF they existed)
2) Why some members that are training so hard and constistently with the known PE templates they end up with no gains at all?
3) If the microtears and the plastic defo(scientistic things) were indeed happening on the dick then why scientists deny that PE is possible?
4) How is possible for members to enlarge their dicks 1,5 inches with just 5 mins of light manual stretching and 10 mins of light jelqing?( not enough time under tension for microtears not enough intensity for plastic defo to happen)

You see ALL of the above questions can be answered with ONLY 1 answer.
That PE is all about a stretched out state of the dick parts that are elongating longer and thicker when the blood is entering during erection.

If you try to answer these questions by the microtears and plastic defo theories you will hit the wall in al of the above questions.
I am playing the devils advocate here... so thing about it..

For 1) I think you are misguided. Analogous to weight lifting: you create micro tears there and they are a scientific fact. Even if you overtrain, you create these tears. But they cannot be filled properly if you overtrain. So the idea that "no gains from overtrainin => this must mean micro tears dont exist" is not useful.

But if I follow your theory, TeoDeles, what would you say about my case?
The flaccid is exactly like before after I hang. Is that a problem in your theory?

[TeoDeles]

For 1) I think you are misguided. Analogous to weight lifting: you create micro tears there and they are a scientific fact. Even if you overtrain, you create these tears. But they cannot be filled properly if you overtrain. So the idea that "no gains from overtrainin => this must mean micro tears dont exist" is not useful.

But if I follow your theory, TeoDeles, what would you say about my case?
The flaccid is exactly like before after I hang. Is that a problem in your theory?

""""But they cannot be filled properly if you overtrain""""
Does science have study on this claim?

"""The flaccid is exactly like before after I hang. Is that a problem in your theory?"""
Do you have EL and EQ gains?

[madyogi]

If you try to answer these questions by the microtears and plastic defo theories you will hit the wall in al of the above questions.
I am playing the devils advocate here... so thing about it..

Okay, I'll give it a shot.

First of all, I have a big problem with the application of what we know about skeletal muscle function (think exercise/bodybuilding/fitness/etc) to penis enlargement. The penis is not comprised of skeletal muscle. It is comprised of smooth muscle tissue, open spaces (lacunae), and fibrous connective tissue.

Let's talk about smooth muscle first. Here's a good article onsite that talks about how ~50% of the penis is made of smooth muscle tissue. Smooth muscle is not like striated voluntary skeletal muscle, but it still responds to mechanical stress by remodeling itself, as explained here. That study shows that various kinds of smooth muscle tissue respond to mechanical stress in a way that leads to "rapid and pronounced adjustments of functional and structural properties." You can read that as tissue deformation or growth or however you want to read it. In fact, you could simply read that as stretched out, but it does seem to indicate that changes are happening at the cellular level within these tissues, so I don't see a need to throw that out. Further, this study is quite clear in saying that "Blood vessels are continuously exposed to mechanical forces that, if excessive, lead to adaptive remodeling in the form of smooth muscle hypertrophy and hyperplasia." Finally, here is an interesting article that references a study related to erectile function saying, "Increasing the density of smooth muscle cells led to normal erectile pressures within the tissue." Clearly, mechanical stress leads to remodeling in smooth muscle tissue, and said remodeling has an effect on erection quality, so let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Further, the concept of mechanotransduction, which is the process by which cells convert mechanical stimulus into electro-bio-chemical activity, applies also to fibrous connective tissue like the tunica. These tissues (like all tissues in our bodies) are constantly being recycled. Connective tissue is highly piezoelectric (as BundleUp has already pointed out). This means the tissue will emit an electric impulse when squeezed or otherwise put under mechanical stress. Connective tissue responds to these electrical impulses by remodeling its fibrous structure. This is partly why people develop "hunchbacks" when they sit too much over a lifetime. That tissue is overloaded (or abnormally loaded) with mechanical stress, so it responds by laying down a thick fibrous network in response to the stress.

So that about covers the tissue science as I understand it today. Let's be clear, all tissues in the penis (smooth muscle and connective tissue) will physically remodel themselves over time in response to mechanical stress.

All that said, I don't think it invalidates much of what you're trying to say here. It just invalidates your notion that remodeling has nothing to do with it. In fact, stretching the tissues implies remodeling.

Ok if gains are not just a stretched out state then explain:

1) Why overtraining is leading to no gains?( overtraining would also be creating microtears and plastic defo IF they existed)
2) Why some members that are training so hard and constistently with the known PE templates they end up with no gains at all?
3) If the microtears and the plastic defo(scientistic things) were indeed happening on the dick then why scientists deny that PE is possible?
4) How is possible for members to enlarge their dicks 1,5 inches with just 5 mins of light manual stretching and 10 mins of light jelqing?( not enough time under tension for microtears not enough intensity for plastic defo to happen)

You see ALL of the above questions can be answered with ONLY 1 answer.
That PE is all about a stretched out state of the dick parts that are elongating longer and thicker when the blood is entering during erection.

Here again, you say, NOT JUST A STRETCHED OUT STATE. I would argue this "stretched out state" is a moving target and happens as a result of remodeling over time, so in a certain sense we're not really disagreeing here.

Let's take your questions one by one:

1) Overtraining can easily cause shrinkage, hard flaccid, etc, even with the models I've laid out. If mechanical stress is too much it can cause injury which will lead to inflammation and a retreat into the body for protection and repair. Further, too much mechanical stimuli (particularly when it is unbalanced) can lead to a thickening and reduction in pliability that is not desirable. When any of these things happen, it will interfere with the consistency of a PE program, which can also in itself jeopardize gains.

2) This one is difficult to approach without knowing the individuals and understanding the consistency and sensitivity with which they were training. I'm not against backing off, or otherwise adjusting established norms, I'm just saying the remodeling stuff is real.

3) This has been discussed at length. Legitimate research is expensive, and dick size is generally a vanity project. There's a lot more money in selling pills month after month to cure ED than there is in establishing a simple exercise program people can do at home for free to get what they want.

4) Nothing I've said invalidates this possibility. The remodeling we're talking about takes place at the cellular level. You have trillions of cells in your body. Every seven years you generally have a new body. In the yoga-therapy world, we say it takes at least 18 months to remodel your fascia, and that's if you're doing everything right, and that's just step one of a lifetime journey.

Of course none of this covers other lifestyle factors like hydration, nutrition, exercise, sleep, hip function, etc, all of which have an impact on any results you get (or don't get) from PE.

Okay, that's all I've got for now. Thanks again for the discussion!

[TeoDeles]

Let's take your questions one by one:

1) Overtraining can easily cause shrinkage, hard flaccid, etc, even with the models I've laid out. If mechanical stress is too much it can cause injury which will lead to inflammation and a retreat into the body for protection and repair. Further, too much mechanical stimuli (particularly when it is unbalanced) can lead to a thickening and reduction in pliability that is not desirable. When any of these things happen, it will interfere with the consistency of a PE program, which can also in itself jeopardize gains.

We are speaking here about members that are overtraining everyday and continue overtraining without stopping and they see no gains for years. And by overtraining I don t mean a dead dick from huge intensity and volume... I mean a dick that is just all the time turtled.
If the microtears existed then ALL extending guys that are doing 6-12h/day would gain at least some mm.... BUT if you read these cases they say clear that they did not gain a single mm. So for once again we are speaking about overdoing it and instead of creating a STRETCHED OUT dick in order for the gains to manifest.... they were doing the opposite.
The same happens with some hangers dudes.... they chase the fatigue . they hang every day and ZERO EL GAINS.... if plastic defo was real for the penis then there would be no reason for no growth...

2) This one is difficult to approach without knowing the individuals and understanding the consistency and sensitivity with which they were training. I'm not against backing off, or otherwise adjusting established norms, I'm just saying the remodeling stuff is real.

People are posting exactly what they were doing and they did everything correct according the BS extending program protocols of extending companies and they didn t gain...
When someone say " I am doing 8h of extending at 900grams" then we know EXACTLY what he is doing.
When someone say " I started hanging with 2lbs and after X months I am now at 14Lbs hanging 6X20 mins" then we know exactly what he is doing.

3) This has been discussed at length. Legitimate research is expensive, and dick size is generally a vanity project. There's a lot more money in selling pills month after month to cure ED than there is in establishing a simple exercise program people can do at home for free to get what they want.

Don t change the discussion from PE to ED.... we are speaking here about SIZE GAINS and not about EQ gains

4) Nothing I've said invalidates this possibility. The remodeling we're talking about takes place at the cellular level. You have trillions of cells in your body. Every seven years you generally have a new body. In the yoga-therapy world, we say it takes at least 18 months to remodel your fascia, and that's if you're doing everything right, and that's just step one of a lifetime journey.
How can you stimulate microtears or plastic defo in order for the "remodeling to happen" when all the time under tension is just 15 mins total and the intensity is so soft that it is pleasant? Yet 1,5 inches are being gained with this method for 20 years now in forums.

Of course none of this covers other lifestyle factors like hydration, nutrition, exercise, sleep, hip function, etc, all of which have an impact on any results you get (or don't get) from PE.

Most PEers are body builders.....
You see BB and PE are going together because the mindset of a BBer is to get better and better and develop his body.
Yet we see numerous of BBers with perfect sleep and nutrition and lifestyle , to be a ZERO PE gainer.

Okay, that's all I've got for now. Thanks again for the discussion!
I also thank you for the discussion but everytime the same result is happening.... every case of gaining and not gaining speaks about a stretched out state of dick or a stiffer state of dick that gave no gains.

Think about the facts we have on forums cases and forget about the studies on OTHER human organs except the dick.
Look at the ACTUAL FACTS from PEers over the globe.... the forums is a gold when we speak about PEers cases so accurate practical conclusions can be made.
So until proper studies on the dick it self will be done by the science .... all we have is forums cases of gains and no gains.

[TeoDeles]

So by the ACTUAL FACTS from most of gainers and non gainers in PE the PRACTICAL conclusion that is being made is that we are speaking more accurate when we are using the TERM "TISSUES STRETCHINESS DEFORMATION" and let me explain why:

Microtears and plastic defo are things that are PERMANENT.
"Stretchiness deformation" is not permanent because as soon as you stop stretching the body is trying to go back to its original state...just like the SPLITS in Ballet or a martial art.
You start doing the splits and the legs are getting stretchier and stretchier by the day and after some point (months) you are able to touch your balls to the ground.
BUT if you stop practicing the splits , after some weeks you will be less and less stretchable.

The same happens in PE.... if you stop cold turkey you are gonna lose most of the gains(if not all) ....If micro and plastic were true on the dick then no gains would be lost.
I agree that if you reach your goal and you continue doing PE then some of the gains will be permanent because a more permanent state of stretchiness will occure.
Also some dicks are easier to get stretchable (easy length gainers) and some are more difficult(hard length gainers).

[Azmike]

Very impressive and helpful contribution to this discussion. Thank you.

Okay, I'll give it a shot.

First of all, I have a big problem with the application of what we know about skeletal muscle function (think exercise/bodybuilding/fitness/etc) to penis enlargement. The penis is not comprised of skeletal muscle. It is comprised of smooth muscle tissue, open spaces (lacunae), and fibrous connective tissue.

Let's talk about smooth muscle first. Here's a good article onsite that talks about how ~50% of the penis is made of smooth muscle tissue. Smooth muscle is not like striated voluntary skeletal muscle, but it still responds to mechanical stress by remodeling itself, as explained here. That study shows that various kinds of smooth muscle tissue respond to mechanical stress in a way that leads to "rapid and pronounced adjustments of functional and structural properties." You can read that as tissue deformation or growth or however you want to read it. In fact, you could simply read that as stretched out, but it does seem to indicate that changes are happening at the cellular level within these tissues, so I don't see a need to throw that out. Further, this study is quite clear in saying that "Blood vessels are continuously exposed to mechanical forces that, if excessive, lead to adaptive remodeling in the form of smooth muscle hypertrophy and hyperplasia." Finally, here is an interesting article that references a study related to erectile function saying, "Increasing the density of smooth muscle cells led to normal erectile pressures within the tissue." Clearly, mechanical stress leads to remodeling in smooth muscle tissue, and said remodeling has an effect on erection quality, so let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Further, the concept of mechanotransduction, which is the process by which cells convert mechanical stimulus into electro-bio-chemical activity, applies also to fibrous connective tissue like the tunica. These tissues (like all tissues in our bodies) are constantly being recycled. Connective tissue is highly piezoelectric (as BundleUp has already pointed out). This means the tissue will emit an electric impulse when squeezed or otherwise put under mechanical stress. Connective tissue responds to these electrical impulses by remodeling its fibrous structure. This is partly why people develop "hunchbacks" when they sit too much over a lifetime. That tissue is overloaded (or abnormally loaded) with mechanical stress, so it responds by laying down a thick fibrous network in response to the stress.

So that about covers the tissue science as I understand it today. Let's be clear, all tissues in the penis (smooth muscle and connective tissue) will physically remodel themselves over time in response to mechanical stress.

All that said, I don't think it invalidates much of what you're trying to say here. It just invalidates your notion that remodeling has nothing to do with it. In fact, stretching the tissues implies remodeling.



Here again, you say, NOT JUST A STRETCHED OUT STATE. I would argue this "stretched out state" is a moving target and happens as a result of remodeling over time, so in a certain sense we're not really disagreeing here.

Let's take your questions one by one:

1) Overtraining can easily cause shrinkage, hard flaccid, etc, even with the models I've laid out. If mechanical stress is too much it can cause injury which will lead to inflammation and a retreat into the body for protection and repair. Further, too much mechanical stimuli (particularly when it is unbalanced) can lead to a thickening and reduction in pliability that is not desirable. When any of these things happen, it will interfere with the consistency of a PE program, which can also in itself jeopardize gains.

2) This one is difficult to approach without knowing the individuals and understanding the consistency and sensitivity with which they were training. I'm not against backing off, or otherwise adjusting established norms, I'm just saying the remodeling stuff is real.

3) This has been discussed at length. Legitimate research is expensive, and dick size is generally a vanity project. There's a lot more money in selling pills month after month to cure ED than there is in establishing a simple exercise program people can do at home for free to get what they want.

4) Nothing I've said invalidates this possibility. The remodeling we're talking about takes place at the cellular level. You have trillions of cells in your body. Every seven years you generally have a new body. In the yoga-therapy world, we say it takes at least 18 months to remodel your fascia, and that's if you're doing everything right, and that's just step one of a lifetime journey.

Of course none of this covers other lifestyle factors like hydration, nutrition, exercise, sleep, hip function, etc, all of which have an impact on any results you get (or don't get) from PE.

Okay, that's all I've got for now. Thanks again for the discussion!

[madyogi]

Microtears and plastic defo are things that are PERMANENT.

This is completely false. The remodeling I'm talking can absolutely reverse. Even if we're going to use the term microtears, which I think is not entirely accurate because the microtear hypothesis is formulated around skeletal muscle, those tears heal, and if you stop training you will atrophy, so the microtears are not permanent. Also, in terms of deformation or remodeling of fibrous tissues, those will change/adapt to changing mechanical stresses over time. Those deformations are only as permanent as the application of mechanical stress.

Again, I'm certainly in agreement that this mechanical stress can be overdone to a point that sabotages the whole endeavor. These tissues are designed to change slowly, not overnight.

"Stretchiness deformation" is not permanent because as soon as you stop stretching the body is trying to go back to its original state...just like the SPLITS in Ballet or a martial art.
You start doing the splits and the legs are getting stretchier and stretchier by the day and after some point (months) you are able to touch your balls to the ground.
BUT if you stop practicing the splits , after some weeks you will be less and less stretchable.
The same happens in PE.... if you stop cold turkey you are gonna lose most of the gains(if not all) ....If micro and plastic were true on the dick then no gains would be lost.

I've already explained how gains from remodelling can be lost with a sudden change in mechanical stresses. With PE, my sense is that frequent erections (assuming high EQ) probably create enough mechanical stress to maintain desired remodeling (cement gains).

The splits thing is not an apples to apples comparison, though. Increasing range of motion around a joint is very often accomplished through relaxation of overtense muscles and mitigation of the stretch reflex, not by an actual lengthening of tissue. Remember that skeletal muscle tissue elongates because it relaxes, not necessarily because the fibers are "getting longer." In my experience, this is as much a neurological phenomenon as anything else. When it comes to range of motion improvements, it is similar to PE in that most of the remodeling actually happens in the fascia or connective tissue not in the muscle tissue. If movement patterns change back to those that created the movement limitations in the first place, connective tissue will begin to return to its older form, as will neurological patterns of chronic muscle tension.

I agree that if you reach your goal and you continue doing PE then some of the gains will be permanent because a more permanent state of stretchiness will occure.
Also some dicks are easier to get stretchable (easy length gainers) and some are more difficult(hard length gainers).

I do agree some dicks are generally more pliable. Some people also have a better sense of tissue manipulation and "get more bang for their buck" if you will.

In the end, it's quite clear to me the tissue is remodeling itself based on mechanical stress. If you want to say it's becoming stretchier or more stretched out, fine by me. I definitely agree that more is not necessarily better, but that doesn't invalidate the remodeling hypothesis.