Biofeedback pelvic floor muscle retraining with Kegels and not RK

[forthebest]

By the way, can you clarify a bit on the topic of making IKs your own? What is the final technique you aim to learn via the biofeedback treatment?

This made me think back to the days I started having sex. In the beginning I sometimes got so heated I busted in my pants, could not handle the mental stimulation. Which kind of stayed. But overtime as I got comfortable with my gf, I managed to postpone PONR. When I felt it building up, I used to do some voluntary kegels, kind of like a series of spasms much like IKs, but a bit sooner and voluntary. Like a dry orgasm without the good feeling and a loss of erection. This effectively pushed back PONR (sometimes a couple seconds, other times minutes and after doing this many times in sex, enabled me to rock on faster and faster without reaching ponr), although it definitely took a lot of practise. Over time, sometime on the second or third round, with applying this method (in the start via hand inbetween sex, then during sex) I could not even reach orgasm a couple times in the end no matter what, which was awesome kind of.

Fast forward a couple years after the breakup and one whole year completely without sex and just watching porn i developed PE (or maybe just lost the practise and muscle mind skills for this method of relaxing by contracting - which is basically what I did.)

Contrary to most of what is written here, to not kegel at all if your pelvic floor is tight, I tried this during edging today and it kind of worked, definitely prolonged the act a ton, although it is still hard and mandatory to stay mindful, to not hold a kegel during edging and to stay relaxed and only do the "voluntary IKs" (funny...) when I feel PONR coming.
Eventually edging fast with lube was not a problem so I introduced porn to try and get some mental stimulation in, I endured some but it ended a bit too much and I got myself to PONR unfortuantely (havent orgasmed or watched porn for 60 days), to research this further, I waited 5 minutes and got easily excited again, again tried porn and wrestled the mental stimulation better, however it still was a bit too much and at this point it already took well over 90 minutes of edging so I called it a day.

Would call this experiment a success - meaning when I start having sex I will probably be able to use this again and in time as I get comfortable with the girl, start having sex for more then 2 minutes even on the first round. Wont go back to watching porn and masturbating tho.

Sorry for the long ramble, was just wondering if maybe something like this was in the mind of your PT as a treatment? Also sorry if this is already documented in here somewhere.

From what i understood, it's a little bit like a suspension of a car if the suspension is very loose the car will go out of control and fly off the road because it's got no control over absorbing the bumps.
So this means the IKs are pumping the muscles to ejaculate and the tightening and releasing of the pelvic floor is all over the place, and you don't have any control over that so your arousel or that scale of 1 to 10 flys up straight to 10 and you cum.

If the suspensions are too hard the car will break on the bumps because unlike the loose suspension, every bumb adds on damage to the suspensions and the car breaks.
The pelvic floor is the same instead of tightening and releasing, it gets tighter and tighter on each thrust really quickly and you got no way to release so you go up the scales of arousel 1 to 10 slower but you will go to 10 without going up one and then going down 2 and you blow.

If the suspensions are just right you can ride over the bumps with control and the cars suspensions aborbes the bumps and so you can control the car with more ease.
With the pelvic floor balanced correctly but is strong and loose at the same time, you can control the tightening and releasing and so control the muscles and the arousel scale.

Another exemple is when you are snowboarding or sking, when their are bumps if you are very loose in the legs you can't absorbe the bumps and you fly, if you are too tight in the legs you might not fly but you will get tired quickly because you are always tensing up and the moment where you can't hold on anymore you lose concentration and you fall hard. But if you balance the tightening and flexibility of your muscles correctly you can have more control and go longer.

So what has this got to do with the biofeedback, I believe that the tightness and flexibility of the pelvis floor is all controled by our brain. We do yoga, strenghting, posture exercises and edging to reestablish the neurone connection and control of the pelvis floor and our muscles and so in turn are able to control the contractions and releasing of the pelvic floor and our arousel.
Some people through these exercises are able to reestablish and regain control of their pelvic floor during sex.

But others like i think me have had less luck, we are all over the place in our mind and/or muscles, we have had bad experiences and/or a lack of confidence, and as times passes it gets worst and worst whatever we do. So sometimes we are too loose or too tight to control the pelvis floor we just can't find that right balance. So we have a hard time reestablishing that neurolgic connection with our pelvic floor.

I think people that don't and never have had PreP have made that neurologic connexion unconsiouly right away or after a few exerience in sex no matter their physic.

So with the biofeedback, you are able to follow and visualize a set path on the machine to contract and release the pelvic floor, by doing this you are able train your brain and neurones to control the contractions and release of the PF and not let them go all over the place. If in your brain you have already set the pace of the contractions your pelvic floor won't take that control away. Also i believe by doing a hard kegel and then releasing slowly it is easier to get the muscle into a relaxed state.
(Try squeezing your hand into a fist really hard and then release it slowly, you find that the hand is more relaxed than if you tried to relaxed it from a normal state).

Of course this is just my personnel theory i will be able to confirm it once i have control, i have been doing lots of routines and stretches over the last year and I believe that has in any case helped me alot, i just need that final push, and eveything will fall into place.

I've got my 2nd session tomorrow.

p.s sorry if it was a ramble, and also for the mistakes, it's late here and i'll re-read and correct tomorrow.

[forthebest]

So i've just got back from my 2nd session of biofeedback, this time it was harder and too be honest, i'm quite tired and my PF is really relaxed from all the work here's a pic of what it looks like playing Pacman with your PF.

20210122_141345.jpg

From what i saw and experienced, doing a rk to get lower the tension doesn't work as well for me as holding a tight kegel and then releasing all that tension slowly. sometimes i would go up, down, up, down and then hold a long up and your pelvic floor is quite happy to release that tension and feels nice and loose.

So i talked a little bit more about the Pelvic floor about if it is tight to begin with, you will have a harder time to go from tension to losening, and he confirmed that some people that he treats he has to cover some of the basics, explaining how the PF works and how to release the tension, with a few stretches etc. but he tells me it is not really the most important thing, the important thing is to get that connexion nerulogic with you PF to be able to control it.

Also thanks to pegym, I have already been reading and practising things with the pelvic floor, so he didn't really need to go into too much detail.

He also covered some basic things to do in sex while doing the biofeedback therapy, mainly things that we already know but I'm going to put it here anyway.

First you have to do long breathes, then trust slowly, when you feel yourself loosing control try and do a few kegels in a rythmic beating, making sure that after each contraction you release it slowly and controled to get your pelvic floor relaxed. Once you can't hold on anymore, you pull out, relax, cunni, fingering whatever you want to do. Then you re-start all over again, and then pull out when you can't hold on anylonger. At first, the lenght of time to lose control will be short but after the 4th or 5th time it time will get longer and longer.

Even though i know pulling out does help, i never really try it because pulling out once you have just gotten into it, like 10 secs, is a horrible mental bang, but it's probably better than lasting 5 secondes more and blowing, probably got something to do with my mental side with Prep, that i will have to correct.

[forthebest]

In minutemans work he talks of using kegels during sex to establish control how to do it etc.

Now that you remind, he did talk about that, i'll have to go re-read his log, thanks ;-)

You know this post interests me more and more. Back when my PreE was the worst (literally putting it in made me cum EVERY SINGLE TIME) I tried something where at the PONR I would kegel hard, stop and relax. Did it three times and after that my pelvic floor was relaxed and I was able to go until I felt like cumming. Like a spasm.

Could definitely be another way of relaxing the pf...

I'd suspect with this biofeedback treatment and fixing those imbalances you've mentioned you'll start to see some solid progress.

Yes me too specialy when it is not wet... yeah i think the idea is what you mentioned about doing a hard kegel to relax the pf, but before the PONR and that's where your control over the PF comes into play. If you don't know what it feels like you can't know what to look for.

I think that's where the biofeedback machine comes into play aswell.

Yes i hope so too that i'll be able to see some solid progress, thanks ;-)

[skyisthelimitpe]

This is some cool shit man I’m really glad you made this post.

I’m almost positive people could buy this machine and program and it do it themselves at home. Based on what you’re telling me it seems like playing Pac-Man and learning how to relax that pf is the main thing your Dr is trying to teach. If you don’t mind, could you post a link or maybe tell us the name of the device that you use? I see a bunch of biostim products but not sure which one it is. Could help some members of the forum that want to try this out at home.

I’m loving this especially because when My posture was the most fucked up I accidentally did this method during sex and it worked. Had to start and stop like 3 times which sucked but still finished the job.

Perhaps combining this with hitting the gym and improving muscular imbalances could be the ultimate treatment?

[skyisthelimitpe]

The mind definitely comes into play with PreE. Because now that my muscular imbalances are being addressed I’m finding it easier and easier to “let go” of my pf tension with my mind

[Johnny D]

Fascinating stuff! I know there was a study some time ago where men were similarly taught to control their PF muscles, leading to better stamina.

Has he tested a group of men who don't experience PreE and confirmed that they can control the machine better than those who do struggle with it?

[forthebest]

This is some cool shit man I’m really glad you made this post.

I’m almost positive people could buy this machine and program and it do it themselves at home. Based on what you’re telling me it seems like playing Pac-Man and learning how to relax that pf is the main thing your Dr is trying to teach. If you don’t mind, could you post a link or maybe tell us the name of the device that you use? I see a bunch of biostim products but not sure which one it is. Could help some members of the forum that want to try this out at home.

I’m loving this especially because when My posture was the most fucked up I accidentally did this method during sex and it worked. Had to start and stop like 3 times which sucked but still finished the job.

Perhaps combining this with hitting the gym and improving muscular imbalances could be the ultimate treatment?

No problem, it sure is a different way of looking at things and a good way to actually measure what your doing with your PF. The machine is a french brand and if you write perineeshop BIOSTIM appareil de rééducation uro-gyneco
(Sorry if i'm not allowed to put this on, even if it is not a link, an admin can take it off if it goes against the rules ;-) )
This is the machine that the PT uses, it's 3500 on that site so way too expensive, but it's got all the programs and things that go with it. you can either have just sensors that you stick under your balls or for an even better reading a thing up your ass. Their are other machines thought less expensive, but i've got no feedback on them. I would like to try it while edging, but that's not going to happen lol.

The mind definitely comes into play with PreE. Because now that my muscular imbalances are being addressed I’m finding it easier and easier to “let go” of my pf tension with my mind

The problem starts with the mind and the muscles get used to it and then to get everything back into place, it's shit ! I think by working the muscular imbalances you are able to rewire the mind aswell.

Fascinating stuff! I know there was a study some time ago where men were similarly taught to control their PF muscles, leading to better stamina.

Has he tested a group of men who don't experience PreE and confirmed that they can control the machine better than those who do struggle with it?

Yes their have been a few studies, If i read correctly, about 80% where able to last 4 and a half times longer than their usual 30 secs after 6 weeks of exercises with the biofeedback, and after 12 weeks they could last even longer.

He did his training with the machine for PreP and PF muscle imbalance at the end of 2019 and with covid and all it's been a little bit complicated. But he has confirmed to me that he has had some good results from people. So we will see.

[ny86]

Thanks for updating us on your journey. Consider yourself very lucky that you found a trained professional who has the experience to help you. I went to a pelvic floor therapist this week myself after reading the Italian study on PFM therapy done by Dr. Antonio Pastore with promising results. So the pelvic floor therapists did some tests to determine if I had any tight pelvic floor issues and told me my pelvic floor function is normal and healthy. It appears that he doesn’t have knowledge about pelvic floor therapy for PE. I hoped he too would do some biofeedback sessions to help me do proper kegels or relaxing PFM, but no.
He gave me a schedule of getting strong erections and trying to maintain them without masturbation for 20-30 minute sessions to “desensitize” my brain. In a month he wants me to see him again.
I’ll see him again but I’m just not confident that he has any knowledge to help me.

[skyisthelimitpe]

Thanks for updating us on your journey. Consider yourself very lucky that you found a trained professional who has the experience to help you. I went to a pelvic floor therapist this week myself after reading the Italian study on PFM therapy done by Dr. Antonio Pastore with promising results. So the pelvic floor therapists did some tests to determine if I had any tight pelvic floor issues and told me my pelvic floor function is normal and healthy. It appears that he doesn’t have knowledge about pelvic floor therapy for PE. I hoped he too would do some biofeedback sessions to help me do proper kegels or relaxing PFM, but no.
He gave me a schedule of getting strong erections and trying to maintain them without masturbation for 20-30 minute sessions to “desensitize” my brain. In a month he wants me to see him again.
I’ll see him again but I’m just not confident that he has any knowledge to help me.

Then what I’d do if I were in your situation is post a posture pic, figure out ur imbalances, then hit the gym