Implications

[Minuteman]

^ In a way yes, but only when you do it stand-alone is when it "counts" the practice you describet should be just used in determing what and how, but it is not a relgular reverse kegel that you can actually benefit much.

But in the end one should experiment and see how something works for his own body.

But it seems half the people dont seem to understand it, and ask 50 times what a RK is and how to do it. Even after the above simple explanation.

It is not that they don't understand it, it is just that they don't bother reading, it is much easier to let the answers come to you than to seek for them, no matter how impolite to the point that is... on the other hand the stucture of this sub-forum isn't that user friendly....

As for the relevance of PC, i can't tell for every body behaves at lest a little different, you should experiment with different levels of arousal and kelgels, and kegel type in order to understand how does that work for you. For the sake of balance however, all four should be practice with some %.

Also note that even if the PC and BC are separate, they are the part of the whole so they alway slightly pull each other.

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Here is a good exercise for learning to reverse kegel better. Do a regular kegel, but very extreme little strength, so that is just moves very very slightly, just enough to feel it, even less. Then relax and sligtly push out, you will see that even though your kegels was of small strength the reverse kegel movement was almost the same as when you do it after the regular kegel.

The idea is like a spiling sand in a hourglass, in the beginning your regular kegel is strong followed by a reverse kegel, in time the idea is that that regular kegel is almost non-existant, after some time you should be able to do a reverse kegel with little or no kegel flex. Notice also how you don't engage the abs that much in this variation...

This is just one of many ways i think, and it would be good if Pegasus could describe in more detail the way he does his revese kegels, since that is moslty his area.

I generally don'e even do much or any reverse kegels, mostly because i am to lazy at the momemt, but since i'm rarely doing any kegels the imbalance should not be that big.

The good thing about kegel and reverse kegel is that once your brain learns how to isolate them, most of the time that sticks forever. So in a way the pasive way to restore balance or status quo is to train the kegels until you are proficitent in control then taking a month or two of pause. The strength should go away, but the control stays.

Now i am not saying that strength isn't important and helful, i'm just describing one of many ways one can bring balance to the pelvic floor muscles.

Note that investing in balance and strength and control is much better/healthier than investing in balance and cotrol alone, so stick to the routines if you want to be more proficient in bed, for strength brings better EQ (erection) and there fore probably helps the penis enlagement process.

[Pegasus]

Never heard of a long term injury of any kind ,from any form of kegel.
I have been doing kegels for a long time and if I want to do a reverse kegel I just do one, soft or hard with or without assistance muscles(eg abs). One issue I have with teaching kegels and male multi orgasm, is that I have been doing it for some time and cannot remember how it was when I started.
In recent times I became aware that there were 2 forms of reverse kegels ,front and back and that I had been doing them as a group. When I tried to isolate them ,I found the front reverse easier to isolate, so I have been working on back reverse, with some success.

[spanky]

This is all very interesting, and a little confusing. There's definitely a physical movement associated with the way I've been doing reverse kegels. In both cases I feel inflation around the PC and BC centres of focus which is distinct to PC and BC clenches. I'm quite prepared to accept this is effectively the same muscle, there's a fair bit going on down there of course.

Now I have been practicing (what I thought were) reverse kegels (^^) this way with a mind to gain enough control as to relax PC and BC without a countering tension at all, but I felt this was some way off. If what's being discussed now is true, then this seems a distinct exercise again to the classic "reverse kegel". Certainly something desirable, and what I'm aiming for personally, and I'm certain of the effectiveness, however where does that leave the physical "push-out" movement if that's not a reverse kegel? Are we saying this is a fruitless exercise?

/confused

[Pegasus]

You have lost me spanky? I have no medical background ,I think it has reached the point where more anatomony knowledge would be good for me.

[Minuteman]

This is all very interesting, and a little confusing. There's definitely a physical movement associated with the way I've been doing reverse kegels. In both cases I feel inflation around the PC and BC centres of focus which is distinct to PC and BC clenches. I'm quite prepared to accept this is effectively the same muscle, there's a fair bit going on down there of course.

Now I have been practicing (what I thought were) reverse kegels (^^) this way with a mind to gain enough control as to relax PC and BC without a countering tension at all, but I felt this was some way off. If what's being discussed now is true, then this seems a distinct exercise again to the classic "reverse kegel". Certainly something desirable, and what I'm aiming for personally, and I'm certain of the effectiveness, however where does that leave the physical "push-out" movement if that's not a reverse kegel? Are we saying this is a fruitless exercise?

/confused

You create your own maze

There is a physical push out, the point is not to be that strong and to be localized on the pelvic floor muscles and not the abs and stomach and stuff. There are (again) two kinds but in the beginning you are probably doing them at the same time, read my posts before this one and try out the exercese i described there.

I would recommend to try and make your sentences more clear and factual and less convoluted if you want to be helped. Most of the time it is you who are confusing yourself and us

[spanky]

You create your own maze

yeah probably true.

There is a physical push out, the point is not to be that strong and to be localized on the pelvic floor muscles and not the abs and stomach and stuff. There are (again) two kinds but in the beginning you are probably doing them at the same time, read my posts before this one and try out the exercese i described there.

Ok, that makes sense, and I can isolate the two with some degree of success. I have been trying to move the focus from my abs to the pelvic floor like you say, and I'm certainly improving. It was starting to confuse me earlier when it sounded like you guys were saying the "push out" movement wasn't actually the reverse kegel, but instead a reverse kegel was simply relaxing PC/BC respectively with no further action involved at all.

I would recommend to try and make your sentences more clear and factual and less convoluted if you want to be helped. Most of the time it is you who are confusing yourself and us

Sorry, I know I'm verbose. I do try, I figure more detail paints a clearer picture, but sometimes just end up rambling. I'm happy to try to clarify anything if I haven't expressed myself well.

[Minuteman]

Ok, that makes sense, and I can isolate the two with some degree of success. I have been trying to move the focus from my abs to the pelvic floor like you say, and I'm certainly improving. It was starting to confuse me earlier when it sounded like you guys were saying the "push out" movement wasn't actually the reverse kegel, but instead a reverse kegel was simply relaxing PC/BC respectively with no further action involved at all.

It is and it isn't, like most things in time you will understand them better with your body. Do not be afraid of doing things wrong, proceed with what you are doing and as your control and experience with kegels, dry orgasms and stuff advance your body will be kind enough to explain you in a way mauch better than anyone can, you just have to observe and listen

Many number of people have started to treat their bodies like a tool, like something separate from them in an existential sense, most of the time that isn't a good idea because the closer you are to your own body the better are you able to understand what it says to you.

It is like people mostly think about meditation as the separation of the mind and body, when it is just silencing the mind to better hear the body and to try to understand the unconscious, after that comes the enlightenment which is deferent for everybody and your understanding of it is directly connected to your value system, religion and all that. If we put it in the scientific view it is trying to have no thoughts and focus on the processes of the body, where the elightment comes as the understanding (or an illusion of understanding) of how things work and how this are.

The understanding that many "mystical" things are just another angle of approach and just another way to see things that are already there, with or without the existence of the "mystical" expalnations, while science is another and so on.

And that ends my little zen/tau/scientific rant

[spanky]

The understanding that many "mystical" things are just another angle of approach and just another way to see things that are already there, with or without the existence of the "mystical" expalnations, while science is another and so on.

I totally agree with this. This is pretty much how my value system works, I see all religions and spiritual beliefs, whatever they may be as just a model for understanding a process. Just like science is. I mean look at quantum mechanics. Nobody has the foggiest idea how it works, they just know that if they work within the boundaries of some model of it that they have, things work.Same goes for God. If a conversation with God (IMHO onesself) is how a person needs to come to terms with their existence, then that works. And if visualising sucking energy up to your heart chakra kicks your brain into a mode that draws blood to the chest or what have you, and achieves what you're trying to achieve, then that works too.

I'm painfully cynical, atheist, all of that, not "spiritual" at all, and I've been that way for as long as I can remember, but I learnt a couple of years ago that these beliefs weren't wrong any more than I was right or wrong, they're just models for understanding. Of course where they fall down is when they don't help a person achieve their goals and they become destructive instead, but that's a WHOLE other conversation

Heh, probably not the right thread for this conversation, but it's done now

[MuadDib]

I did only normal kegels for 2 years. When i begin a solo session, i feel the damn pc muscle clenched immediately and stays that way all the session. Its strained and hard. So, for me its more easy to relax it with a (easy) push from my abs.

[spanky]

I did only normal kegels for 2 years. When i begin a solo session, i feel the damn pc muscle clenched immediately and stays that way all the session. Its strained and hard. So, for me its more easy to relax it with a (easy) push from my abs.

Hey MuadDib, welcome to the gym

Are you able to successfully relax your PC this way?