Involuntary kegels - Cause or symptom?

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

I just replied in another thread about holding off involuntary kegels...

That tells me that controlling these involuntaries will work, but it doesn't tell me how to reliably do it. It may be like trying to slow down an engine by holding the pistons down. Sure that would work, but it'd be extremely difficult, and might damage the engine.

It got me wondering if there's any insight in this comment? I mean, I'm confident that with involuntary kegels at bay my PE would also be stemmed, but if those involuntaries are a symptom of something else, whether they cause PE or not, then trying to tackle that at source may be the wrong thing to do?

I recognise that this goes back to pelvic floor imbalance, just opening up the topic of cause vs symptom for discussion

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Well doing kegels as rehab is safe enough and we have seen some success with them. I thought of this like doing hamstrings so that the quad muscles don't get out of balance. So yes I thought of it in physical terms with a physical cure. Of course anxiety could be an underlying driver in pe, but cureing it at a physical level should improve that as well.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

I'm not familiar with the hamstrings physiology, not being much of a sportsman or gym regular, but I get the idea. I didn't necessarily mean that the alternative was psychological either, I don't think that's necessarily so. It could well be fitness, health or nutrition related just in a different way.

In my case I don't attribute the cause to anxiety, but I do (more now) recognise that a psychological element to treatment is useful. Really, I'm just throwing my OP out there to be sure we're covering all the bases.

[Minuteman Member of the Month March 2013. Find all posts View Profile Close Minuteman]

I just replied in another thread about holding off involuntary kegels...


It got me wondering if there's any insight in this comment? I mean, I'm confident that with involuntary kegels at bay my PE would also be stemmed, but if those involuntaries are a symptom of something else, whether they cause PE or not, then trying to tackle that at source may be the wrong thing to do?

I recognise that this goes back to pelvic floor imbalance, just opening up the topic of cause vs symptom for discussion

The best and non harmful way to deal with the involuntary kegeli is by turning them into counscious kegel holds (1-3 seconds) that way you are not going against the flow yet you are disrupting the involuntary kegels.

They are not a symptom of something else there are an effect of a reflex that you build up in years trying to cum to fast. Again you with your mazes

The interesting way to view a promeatur problem is to view it as a survivalistic instinct in procreation. In other words in order to reproduce more quickly in a dangerous enviroment the spicies that thoes it faster has more chance not to get caught with its pants down.

Since now we are in a way a ruling race that instinct is viewed as (from both the "victim" an other) as a problem or even illness. The problem is that that instinct is deep within us and activates only if we live a certain kind of life (that is too much stresful for us, or something like that).

So our instinct for that is kinda out of date, but it helped us in the past (probably) and since we have in a way evolved (techologicaly not biologically much) there is less and less need for that, but if some serious "shit" happens and out civilizations go down (and we become the hunted) those instincts will be of help

Although it sounds dumb from the current standpoint if you observe animals and use the parallel it becomes logical.

This is why the involountary kgels aren't symptoms or caouse but effect of the need to reproduce faster...

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Ok, so anxiety triggers a reflex, programed into the species ,good theory. Bottom line I am staying away from the head issues on this, many qualified people have made that their life work, result; not much. I am working on the physical side.

[Minuteman Member of the Month March 2013. Find all posts View Profile Close Minuteman]

I am working on the both sides, for one side complements another. The idea is to use physical practice (kegels/reverse kegels edging etc) to fix the reflex, or to retrain the body. The pshycological side sums up to acceptance of the problem, understanding of the bodily processes, and instilling a positive attitude and right mind set.
There is nothing to "work on" in the psychological department simply because this is the thing that everyone must fix on their own. Again, it is all about the middle road, not the extremes, it is all about balance.

As for the head issues, many qualified people have made it their life work with good result, but it is not something that you can just call Mr. Fixit to fix for you. Their's is to provide you with the understanding it is up to you to fix it. The punchline of every psychologist probably is "let me help you help yourself" and not "let me tell you how to fix yourself".

Also many people made kegels their life work, but there are abut the same % of results as with the "head" work. What you don't seem to accept is that by helping people with your kegel/reverse kegel routines you instill them with confidence and, even if you accept it or not, you are helping them help themseves, in other words you are actually working on both physical and psychological side even if you want it or not.

Like with myself, when i started practiceing MMO and DO i got the big confidence boost and everything in "my head" seemed cleared, and finaly much of the stuff made sence, so in fishing it with the physical i started to fix the psychological.

For example when i was younger i went to the pshychologist/neuro-psychlogist because of my panic/anxiety attacks that where preety strong. While some of those prescibed me bunch of medicine, one wise pshychologist canceld all my medicine and only gave me a B-vitamin complex and prescribed me that i have to walk daily for at leas one hour at constant pace on a preferebly flat ground, plus the breathing exercises that where simmilar to yoga (a that time i didn't know what was yoga) And the problem fixed itself, in other words he helped me help myself.

The idea, as he explained it to me after was that by walking at a constant pace your sweat glands (or whatever is the name) expel sweat at the constant fixed pace and that the constant pace brings balance to the body, and in return the mind. It is so simple yet so ingenious. And of course the recovery was excelent and i have gotten out of that crisis stronger than ever mentally.

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Actually i said this" Of course anxiety could be an underlying driver in pe, but cureing it at a physical level should improve that as well. " In post 2 of this very thread. I am very aware that working on the physcial can help the mental. So lets see; through years of uni and multi degrees, psyc guys filled you full of drugs which didn't work and possibly did other thearpy which didn't work. Finally you went to the wisest guy of all, who got you to go for a walk, (that is work through the physical side) and that worked.
Well I am working on the physical side because I think it works and that is where I can make the best contributation. I have no quals in the head side and little talent or inclination for it. I acknowledge that there is a head side to premature and delayed ejaculation issues and hope there is usefull work being done there by others, including yourself MM.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Obviously these things are all connected, but just for the sake of perspective, I've never had notable anxiety issues, I'm fairly confident in life, both in and out of the bedroom. However the onset of my PE, slowly over time as opposed to being a natural reflex and just the way I am, has caused a certain anxiety when having sex because I don't want to disappoint. I'm totally aware of this, and I do what I can to rise above it. Indeed the last times I had sex I worked around the PE and we both still had a lot of fun, but two things come out of it. Ultimately it's unsatisfying and disappointing to cum so quickly when you get around to penetration, and secondly, the anxiety *caused* by my PE stands in the way of me getting into those situations in the first place because it means I have to be careful instead of attentive. (edit: or should I say attentive to me rather than her)

It may on the one hand be the best thing that's ever happened to me because it's made me readdress how I approach sex, and that's definitely made me a better lover, which is a Good Thing (TM), but on the other it's enough of a challenge for me that I want to leave no stone unturned in tackling it head on for a solution that doesn't require pills. If that means I ask stupid questions from time to time I can live with that

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

This issue was thought to be totally psyc related for many years and is still thought of as largely psyc, I don't think that helps. They used to do the same with ed.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

The psych element certainly exists, and it doesn't help matters, but in my case it is definitely a symptom, and not a cause. Furthermore, I'm not even sure if I buy the whole idea of having trained onesself to cum quickly through furious wanking as a child. It sounds plausible for a pop column in Men's Health or something, but when you examine the idea more closely I really don't see it standing up.

Maybe I'm unusual.. well, this is probably true, but It doesn't sound like my experience of PE is spectacularly different to the majority of people posting here.

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

I think there is more than 1 cause.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

I guess the question this raises is whether the cause matters. Obviously we're all agreed that there are many ways PE can develop, but does that mean there are many different types of PE? or is it always the same condition, demanding the same treatment regardless of how a person gets there?

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Quite so spanky.

[spanky Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close spanky]

Hey, bit of a random question, but I just had hiccups and it made me think. The only way I know to get rid of hiccups is to take as deep a breath as I can and hold my diaphragm tight so it literally can't spasm. It works every time, but I have to hold it for anything from 20 secs to a couple of minutes (with quick breaths).

I wondered if there were physiological similarities here. Whether that teaches us anything if so, I couldn't say.

[Emptyrecyclebin Member Find all posts View Profile Close Emptyrecyclebin]

pegasus, spanky and minuteman, i hope you guys get to the bottom of this mystery, i will help contribute as much as i can even though im still pretty new to all of this.