On forgiveness

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

First thing that crosses my mind is that people have a different idea of forgiveness than I do .

So a person says they forgave someone completely then quit their job took the kids out of school and moved interstate so they never had to have anything to do with them again . Hmmm . Most I ever do to avoid people I don't forgive is cross the street . Once I was thinking of joining a canoe club then decided I didn't like the people so I didn't go ahead does that count ?
Often I get you have to forgive people so you don't upset yourself . The stress you put on yourself yada yada .

Well here is an idea don't stress about it and don't forgive them and don't move interstate . Hey live your best life that is the best revenge . You have to be at home with the idea that people can hurt you and get away with it . That is the way the universe works . On the other hand I like to think at least some of them became better people later hard as it is for me to believe . It is possible that at least some of them were not inately bad to the core .

On the other hand some of them I just believe were and are evil . That being the case and since I try to avoid hypocrisy I often do not forgive people . I just try and be mellow about how I react to it , thus I do not move interstate .
On the other hand if karma dictates that they die in pain I am not unhappy about it .
Anyway I have some differences with well known author Mark Manson on this .

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Here is a quote from a Mark Manson article .
Quote
The five steps of SUE ME are:

1. Separate the action from the person
2. Understand their motivation
3. Empathize
4. Mark your boundaries
5. Eliminate emotional attachment

Let’s take them one by one.
1. SEPARATE THE ACTION FROM THE PERSON

There’s a saying called Hanlon’s Razor that I like which says, “Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity.”9
I love this because I believe there are few truly sadistic people in the world, but pretty much all of us can be totally hateful morons if you put us in the wrong context with the wrong information.
We all succumb to behaviors that are not reflective of who we actually are. Hell, just last week, I ate an entire pint of ice cream by myself and proceeded to hate myself for the next six hours. Does that mean I am the person who eats an entire pint of ice cream out of pure gluttony? No, it’s just an action that I wasn’t particularly proud of. It didn’t align with my values or the person I aspire to be. But it happened. So I forgave myself and moved on.
This separation of the action from the person is crucial to reaching any sort of closure with anyone in your life. Everyone—and I mean absolutely everyone—does bad things in their life. But very few people in this world are bad people.
https://markmanson.net/wp-content/up...lvinsinner.jpg
In Christianity, this is often described as, “Love the sinner, hate the sin.” Many other religions have their own versions of this concept. Most religions are built around some central tenet of unconditional forgiveness. And that forgiveness begins in separating the action from the person.
From a secular point of view, if you study enough psychology, you discover that there’s not really such a thing as a “self” anyway. It’s this imagined construct, a mental target that is always moving, changing, and evolving. In that sense, any “bad person” is constantly moving, changing and evolving—or at least has the potential to. Therefore, it’s this focus on the potential for change or evolution—the possibility for new beliefs and actions—that is at the core of forgiveness.
2. UNDERSTAND THEIR MOTIVATION

As a general rule, people who do hurtful things do so because they are hurt themselves. Few people in this world are sadists. Most people who appear to take some sort of pleasure in hurting you or others are most likely compensating for the pain that they feel. Often times, fucked up belief systems have cornered them into doing some heinous shit, and they are some combination of too dumb/scared/insecure to question those beliefs.

“As a general rule, people who do hurtful things do so because they are hurt themselves.”

But whatever this person has done, look for some explanation of their motivation beyond “they are a piece of shit.” Some examples:

• A woman who cheats on her husband does it because she feels lonely and ignored and the cheating was merely a cry for attention to know someone cared.
• The man who cheats on his taxes does so because he’s terrified he won’t be able to provide for his family.
• The dude who stole your phone feels justified as he’s grown up in poverty and been screwed over by a corrupt system repeatedly throughout his life.

Whether these reasons are true or not is beside the point. The point is that no one thinks they’re being evil. Everyone feels justified in what they are doing—otherwise they wouldn’t do it!
Also, you might say, “Okay, but feeling lonely and ignored doesn’t give you permission to break the trust of your marriage.” You’re right, it doesn’t. But we separated the action from the person, remember? These are not excuses. They are simply explanations. And before you can forgive someone, it helps to understand why they did what they did.
Because without understanding someone’s motivation, it’s impossible to empathize with them. And when it comes down to it, forgiveness is ultimately a form of empathy.
3. EMPATHIZE

Now the hard part: you gotta empathize with the fucking person. Empathy is a whole skill unto itself. Empathy means you take whatever pain motivated that person and you imagine that you have that same pain yourself.
You imagine the confusion and horror of seeing your workplace shut down and lay everybody off. You visualize that pain and stress of struggling with an addiction. You challenge yourself to feel whatever adversity you can imagine they’ve gone through and then pretend you’ve gone through it yourself.
It’s hard to do. But it’s arguably one of the most important of all human skills. Our empathy is one of the only things that separates us from animals. It’s what gives us a foothold into morality. It’s what fills life with a sense of meaning.
If you really want to boil it down, empathy is forgiveness and vice-versa. If forgiveness is the ability to see the person as a multi-faceted and complex human being, empathizing with them is what gets you there. When you no longer see the wrong action as the totality of their character and merely one small resultant part of their character, you’ve reached a state of forgiveness.
4. MARK YOUR BOUNDARIES

Once you’ve empathized with the person and decided that, no, maybe they’re not a moldy shit tumor after all, it’s time to ask yourself what role you want them to have in your life, if any at all.
The difficulty of this largely depends on your relationship with the person. If it’s a stranger, it’s usually quite easy, just tell them to fuck off. If it’s a friend, it can be a bit harder. If it’s family, it’s really hard. And if it’s you who’s the moldy shit cancer, then it’s literally impossible.
I’ve written a lot about boundaries over the years, but here’s the quick and dirty version:

• Set rules. Define which behaviors you will and will not accept.
• Decide on consequences. If someone breaks one of your rules, what are the consequences?
• Communicate the above calmly and compassionately.

https://markmanson.net/wp-content/up.../02/sand-2.jpgBoundaries 101: Cross this line and I will spit in your fucking coffee. Got it?So this might look something like: “Look mom, I forgive you for abandoning me to marry a trucker. It has taken me years of therapy to understand that you were addicted to milk thistle and had intense insecurities around handlebar moustaches. But I also want you to know that while I forgive you, that doesn’t give you a right to be a part of my life. I’m happy to talk to you, but for now I don’t want to include you in any family activities. I ask that you please respect that, otherwise I will have to cut off contact.”
Boom. Nailed it.
What’s important about boundaries is not necessarily the result. Some people will respect your boundaries, some will not. What is important is that boundaries give you a clear sense how to manage each situation with this individual, no matter what happens.
5. ELIMINATE EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT

The final step of forgiveness is to let go of the emotional attachment that you’ve developed around hating this person’s guts for so long. Let the hatred and anger wash away, let the visions of revenge and misfortune die. It’s not helping anyone, least of all yourself.
Yes, the emotions will still rise in you around this person, but simply let them go. There’s an old Native American fable that says that inside us all we have two wolves battling for our attention. One wolf is our love. The other is our fear. And whichever wolf we feed will grow stronger and begin to dominate the other one. Feed the loving wolf. Yes, that one there, with the fluffy pink fur. She enjoys steak… and the limbs of small children. There you go, good girl.
HOW TO FORGIVE YOURSELF

But what if the awful person you can’t seem to forgive is yourself? We all do things in our lives that we come to regret, that we wish we could take back, and that we harbor shame and guilt for ever doing.
The process is actually totally the same.

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Ok so you can do step 5 without the rest. You can do step 4 without the rest ,

So those I don't mind it's the others I can argue about .

[TheZZMan Moderator Member of the Month Sept 2018PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close TheZZMan]

Forgiving someone who has wronged me is something that I rarely do. I still hold grudges against others who live in the neighborhood from incidents that happened almost 10 years ago. I take each person at face value, accept them as who they are, but violate that trust and its something I can not forget. Thus the person, who in a drunken stuper, asked me to step outside to settle a squabble, violated my trust and is not let back in. The squabble was that he was talking nasty to a good friend of mine and I stepped in to calm the situation. Instead, he got in my face and wanted to escalate something that never should have gotten to that level. I could have kicked his ass, instead, had him removed from the function and crossed him off my list of potentials.

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Umm ten years isn;t that long .
When a guy that had bullied me in high school died recently I bought a nice bottle of wine . . You remember I am 60y right .
Now that doesn't mean I stressed about this guy life is too short .
But hey you take your pleasures where you find them .

[Ultimate Burrito Moderator Member of the Month Oct 2017PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Ultimate Burrito]

Ain't life a B* I spent about 20 minutes responding to this and accidentally hit the back button. Maybe I'll have the emotional energy to come back later and type.

[Ultimate Burrito Moderator Member of the Month Oct 2017PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close Ultimate Burrito]

Someone once taught me that I should always assume positive intent. Most people don't wake up deciding that they want to intentionally make your life a living hell. Usually people are the way they are as a response to their environment and outward stimulus. If we took time to peer into that person's life we'd likely gain new perspectives and it would change how we view that person or situation that happened to us.

Also, from my experience, usually the most prideful are the ones that get offended the easiest and take things the most personally. I think our own pride is just as responsible as the offender. Pride is like the claw that clutches onto the the offense and refuses to let go.

[TheZZMan Moderator Member of the Month Sept 2018PEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close TheZZMan]

Umm ten years isn;t that long .

That was just one example -have several that go back longer than 10 years - but none that go back as far as high school.

The guy I referred too almost lost his marriage over his drinking issues. I understand he has sobered up. However, I told my friends that if he is at or is invited to a function, my wife and I will NOT show up. To date, he has not been invited

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Well must admit I have never tried to influence others .

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Here is the thing I think some people are just not good people and need to be held to account for it .

Understanding and a sweet nature will not make them better people nor will it change their actions.

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Ok so the crux of Mark Mansons argument is that bad people are an extream rarity . I beg to differ .

Lets start by looking at personality traits . So we all have them including the dark traits but they are a sliding scale .

So at one end for example Mother Teresa at the other Hitler . So what for instance would be regarded as a sadist , well there is argument but typically someone in the top 1 to 4%(depending who you talk to ) for the personality trait sadism . Now these are people who would cut you because they enjoy seeing you bleed . So you say they are not that rare why don't they do it more . It is simple enough they are afraid of the blowback . So going to jail being beaten up . Now please remember they are not put off from cuting you because you are a nice guy who is good to your mother .

Half of the volunteers also had to “work” for the opportunity to be cruel. Once they won a round, they had to complete a tedious and monotonous counting task before administering the blast of noise. The idea was to see who would make that effort to engage in unprovoked cruelty.
The sadists did, and only the sadists. All of those with dark personality traits were cruel to an innocent opponent when it was easy to exert pain. But the sadists increased the intensity of their attack when they realized the innocent person would not fight back. And what’s more, they were the only ones willing to spend time and energy for the opportunity to be cruel.
All of this suggests that sadists are motivated by an intrinsic appetite for cruelty. The act of inflicting suffering on innocent people is apparently pleasure-driven and so rewarding that sadists will pay a price for the chance

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Psychopathy
Psychopathy reflects shallow emotional responses. The relative lack of emotions results in high stress tolerance, low empathy, little guilt and leads them to seek extremely stimulating activities, resulting in impulsivity and a disposition towards interpersonal conflict.

So again a sliding scale now a psychopath does not care if he hurts you or not . If something he regards as fun results in you geting maimed meh .

Psychopaths have no qualms about hurting others, but their aggression usually has a purpose. Minor as it may be .

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

Narcissists will hurt you because they are jealous or because you call them on their utter bs . Or because they think it furthers their image in some way . They will seek to exploit people and don't think you matter
The symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder include: grandiose sense of importance, preoccupation with unlimited success, belief that one is special and unique, exploitative of others, lack of empathy, arrogance, and jealousy of others.

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Signs of Machiavellianism

https://www.harleytherapy.co.uk/coun..._z-265x199.jpgSomeone with the trait of Machiavellianism will tend to have many of the following tendencies:

• only focused on their own ambition and interests
• prioritise money and power over relationships
• come across as charming and confident
• exploit and manipulate others to get ahead
• lie and deceive when required
• use flattery often
• lacking in principles and values
• can come across as aloof or hard to really get to know
• cynical of goodness and morality
• capable of causing others harm to achieve their means
• low levels of empathy
• often avoid commitment and emotional attachments
• can be very patient due to calculating nature
• rarely reveal their true intentions
• prone to casual sex encounters
• can be good at reading social situations and others
• lack of warmth in social interactions
• not always aware of the consequences of their actions
• might struggle to identify their own emotions

The Machiavellianism Scale

[Pegasus AdministratorPE Gym EditorPEGym Hero ☺ Admin of the Month Mar 2015 Find all posts View Profile Close Pegasus]

So straight away we have 4 dark traits that I would argue at the extreame end would make you not a good person .

Between them you are already geting a fair number of people . If you went with 2% for each trait you would get 2% sadists etc now this would not give you 8% since some people are sadists and pyschopaths but you get the point .
Anyway I would argue if you are in the top 10% for multiple of these you are likely not to be a nice person.