Divorce and Depression

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

Need a place to express what I'm feeling right now, and I also hope that some members will chime in and try to help me along with my situation. Basically, my wife and I decided to get divorced. We made this decision back in January. I asked her to wait until June to actually file the papers since I have a test then, and she agreed. There were some major issues that she brought up that led up to her feeling distant. Please note that what I'm writing here will probably be biased in my favor, as it normally is for someone who is involved in the fray.

First of all, these issues came up in November, right before Thanksgiving. We were trying to conceive at the time. We had been trying for almost 2 years, and both of us were getting frustrated. She had earlier proposed that if we couldn't conceive by the end of the year, that she would be willing to go through IVF (in vitro fertilization). I was glad to hear that she was willing to go so far to have babies with me.

We always seemed to have a good relationship; I told her "I love you" many times each day. I always hugged and kissed her lots and lots, even after years of marriage. From an outsider's point of view, it seemed like we were "the perfect couple." Yes, we argued, but we always apologized and put it behind us afterwards (or so I thought... but that's another issue).

It took us a while to get to the point of trying to conceive. She was born in China (though her English is very good), and I'm Chinese-American. We got married in China and waited 2 years for her immigration visa. We moved here to the San Fran Bay Area. For those who don't know, this is probably the #2 most expensive place in the US, #1 being NYC. It was really tough at first, we took any jobs we could just to stay afloat. We both worked really hard, and our lives seemed to be getting better every day. I'd always wanted to have kids, and she knew that early on.

Well, one evening last November (we had been together for 9 years, married for 7 years), she sat down with me and said, "Steve, I don't want to have kids." Of course, I got really defensive. This was something very important to me, and I asked, "What do you mean you don't want to have kids? This is very important to me." Well, I won't try to quote every line we said, but I'll paraphrase the basic idea.

Basically, what she really meant to say, every time said, "I don't think we're ready," was that "I don't think I'm ready, and I don't think I'll ever be ready." I couldn't think of anything else to say, so I just kept repeating, "This is very important to me." In my mind, I couldn't get over the deception and the shock. I told her (and now that I think about it, it may have been a mistake to say this at that time) that it felt like someone had murdered my unborn children. Which was true, that was exactly how I felt.

Anyways, she tried to explain how everything she was doing was trying to "hint" at the fact that she didn't want to have kids: she always forgot to take her prenatal pills, she never liked taking her basal temp readings (used for tracking fertility), she filled up our "third room" (which I called the "baby room", but she never called it that) with her clothes and a clothes drying rack... Also when other people asked her if she wanted kids, she would answer, "No, I don't want kids. It's too much fun being childless!", but whenever I asked her, she said, "Let's have babies, how many do you want? 5?" Something like that.

So how was I supposed to pick up on those clues, when her words were completely contradictory? I had noticed that her answers to other people were different, but I assumed that it was because she was frustrated about not getting pregnant after trying for so many years and just wanted to shut them up about it. I was equally frustrated and would have done the same thing.

Another one of her "hints" was that she kept trying to throw obstacles in the path of having kids. She would say, "I don't think we're ready to have kids yet." And then she'd say, "We need a 3-bedroom house." So, after my dad passed away in a tragic car accident, I used the insurance money to buy a duplex (I own both sides), each side has 3 bedrooms. Here in the Bay Area, that is no small feat. Then after that, she said, "We need more income." So I quit running my kungfu school (I was teaching pre-schoolers but was only making about $1,000 a month profit), and I enrolled in law school.

Then she said that she didn't think I was ready to be a father. This really confused me, because I used to deal with 3-year-olds all day, every day. Not only that, but I've taken classes on ECE (early childhood education) and have extensive knowledge on how children learn and grow. I didn't know how else I could be better prepared. She said that I wasn't prepared for the sleepless nights, the dirty diapers, crying all the time... Maybe she was right, but I told her that you can never be prepared for those things until after they've happened the first time; basically, you'll be ready when your second baby comes around.

Also, before, she would always tell me that she thought I would make a great father.

Anyways, this is just one issue (having kids). There were other issues, the main ones being sex, investing, and "no passion", which I may add to this once I get around to it.

Here is a "cut and paste" of my progress log, which can be found here: https://www.pegym.com/forums/progres...gress-log.html

I’m going through a divorce right now; mind you, not a bitter, “fighting tooth and nail” kind of divorce, this one is amicable. I’m now 33 years old, and we were married for almost 7 years. One of the main issues that we had that my wife and I never felt comfortable talking about was sex. I always had a problem getting erections and keeping them; I was frustrated with myself and tended to raise my voice at her when she brought up the topic. She took it as something she was doing wrong, and started to think that I just wasn’t attracted to her any more (which was entirely not true).

It was so bad that even after I got an erection (after 20 minutes or so of manual stimulation), I only had a matter of seconds (seriously, only about 5 or 6 seconds) before it would become too flaccid to do anything with. I loved her very much, and we were trying to have kids (which was actually another issue: I wanted kids, but she didn’t… and she never told me). This all just added to the stress and anxiety around sex, and I thought my waning libido was due to my age.

My wife is not a bad person at all; she's letting me keep the house and all my money. All that she asks is that I give her enough money for relocation and furnishing her new place. I'll let her take any of the things she wants, in return.

Also, please don't say that she married me just to get here to the US. That's completely not her personality. And, no name calling please. Other than that, any other opinions welcome.

[1969mari Member Find all posts View Profile Close 1969mari]

Hi friend I`m sorry that you have to live this situation.
What i have to say is that life is dinamic and we (humans) have changes in our life. Try to remember different stages of your life and see if you didn`t thought different is many things. I think that's what happened to your wife.
Good luck and stay strong.

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

Yeah, that makes sense. She did mention that the things she said weren't lies... it's just that she wasn't certain about whether or not she wanted to have kids. She said that she tried to "push herself" to have kids with me since she knew it would make me happy, but after some time, she came to the realization that the reason she had to push herself so hard was because deep down she just didn't want kids in the first place.

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

Man, for some reason that song "Fix You" by Coldplay really hits me right at my core right now. :'(

YouTube - Coldplay - Fix You [Lyrics]

[scissorCock Member Find all posts View Profile Close scissorCock]

Yeah, that makes sense. She did mention that the things she said weren't lies... it's just that she wasn't certain about whether or not she wanted to have kids. She said that she tried to "push herself" to have kids with me since she knew it would make me happy, but after some time, she came to the realization that the reason she had to push herself so hard was because deep down she just didn't want kids in the first place.

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

thank you for your detailed story. I have a few questions if you do not mind answering them.

It appears there was a lot of pressure around having children such as prenatal pills, basal temps, and especially labeling the third room as "the baby's room". Did she ever express that these things were making her stressed out? To me it appears as it takes the fun out of preparing for the opportunity of having a child one day or too planned, rather than conceiving spontaneously.

Next, I am confused to why she would think you would not be the perfect father. For what you are illustrating you appear to be extremely intelligent, good with children, and wise with money. Other than what you told us has she expressed otherwise?

Third, you stated in your progression thread that you have had problems getting/maintaining erections (possibly because of insecurity), did you explain the symptoms to your doctor? Did you experiment with any ED drugs?

Forth, she stated she did not want any money, just enough to get her into an apartment and furnished. Does she have a full-time job to make the payments towards rent, utilities, food, and clothing? Will she also expect some of this money to come out of your pocket? (divorce can be a tricky thing I've witnessed many issues with it in my lifetime; although you are studying law and would probably have a better understand than I or she would)

Finally, assumptions of infidelity?

Thanks if you don't want to answer any of these no pressure. Hang in there and thanks for sharing.

[Closed039 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Closed039]

You radically altered your life including giving up a (admittedly a low paying) job that you presumably enjoyed, enrolling in law school, and using your dead father's money to buy a house. SHE SHOULD HAVE MADE HER INTENTIONS A LITTLE CLEARER. Go to law school, bro, and fight tooth and nail for every thing you can get. She seriously did a number and if some bitch did that to me I know I'd be jaded for a long time. I'm sure Mr. Big Dick will have a bit to say on this matter since he has been through this sort of thing.

[mechanicJT Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close mechanicJT]

I feel for you. I am also going through a divorce right now. When I read your post I see something you may not. Every time she was saying yall were not ready, yall needed this, it meant she was not ready. I am not trying to stereotype but is not being submissive and passive a quality of Asian women. She may not have had the "voice" or the nerve to tell you your goals were not the same. This is not to say it is your fault in any way. It was a failure to communicate properly and fault can be had on each side.
On the positive side you should be thankful you have not had children yet. I have been in two mariages and both times we had children and the woman decided she wasn't ready to be a mother after the fact. Now it sounds like you would be a great father on your own but for the kids sake it is best that you solved this now.
Just think you are still young, working on a law degree, and already financially in a strong position. You should be very proud of yourself and in the future you will find a woman who would love to have children with you. I think you will find that your qualities are very attractive to women.
Finally, use this time to try and solve your ED issue. I am not familiar with your story but it sounds like you need to see a specialist. I suffer from premature ejaculation so I can relate to how it makes you feel and the doubts it puts in your mind about your significant other, or even future relationships. However I hope that you will be able to solve this issue. There are various methods for solving ED and I believe you will find one that works for you.
I wish you luck and the only advice I can give you about dealing with the emotional pain is stay busy. Pour yourself into your studies, and take back up your taekwondo or whichever martial arts field it was you mentioned. This time is about doing what makes you happy. When you get there and have healed you will be in a great position to move forward with your life and your goal of having children.

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

thank you for your detailed story. I have a few questions if you do not mind answering them.

It appears there was a lot of pressure around having children such as prenatal pills, basal temps, and especially labeling the third room as "the baby's room". Did she ever express that these things were making her stressed out? To me it appears as it takes the fun out of preparing for the opportunity of having a child one day or too planned, rather than conceiving spontaneously.

First, thanks for responding, and for asking questions. I think this is what I need; I need someone to help me flesh out my thoughts and clarify my feelings.

To answer this first question, the pressure built up over the 2 years we were trying to conceive. As time went by, we started adding more and more things. For example, when we first started trying to conceive, there were no pills, no temp readings, no baby's room. The only thing we did was mark the first day of her period on the calendar. Eventually, (after a few months) we added the prenatal pills at the advice of a doctor, and started the temp readings about a year and a half into it. By that point we were both getting pretty frustrated.

Next, I am confused to why she would think you would not be the perfect father. For what you are illustrating you appear to be extremely intelligent, good with children, and wise with money. Other than what you told us has she expressed otherwise?

She has always asserted that she feels I will be successful at whatever I do, that I will be a great father, and she thinks I'm on my way to being very, very rich. She said, over the years we've been together, that she will support me no matter what I decide to do. She was very supportive of me when I told her I wanted to start a kungfu school. She was also supportive when I told her I wanted to enroll in law school. This is what confuses me so much about this, though; even though she says all this, she has issues with how I invested the money, that I started law school, and that I'm not prepared to be a father.

Third, you stated in your progression thread that you have had problems getting/maintaining erections (possibly because of insecurity), did you explain the symptoms to your doctor? Did you experiment with any ED drugs?

I tried some of those herbal pills that I found online. Didn't work, obviously. As my progress log states, though, I was very sensitive about the subject and didn't seek out any professional help. That was one of my main mistakes on this issue, and one I hope to fix with PE and posting on these forums. Hopefully posting here will make me more comfortable with talking about sex, and how to talk about it, so I can avoid this problem in my next relationship.

Forth, she stated she did not want any money, just enough to get her into an apartment and furnished. Does she have a full-time job to make the payments towards rent, utilities, food, and clothing? Will she also expect some of this money to come out of your pocket? (divorce can be a tricky thing I've witnessed many issues with it in my lifetime; although you are studying law and would probably have a better understand than I or she would)

We qualified for the loan using her income alone. My income was difficult to prove since I was self-employed, and I had a lot of deductions that reduced my reported income to nearly nothing (which was a good thing because I paid hardly any tax... it's what my accountant told me to do). If she goes off on her own, she will be able to support herself with her monthly income alone. For me, I will be hard-pressed to make ends meet since I don't have a job. I will have to do some passive-income, cashflow investing to make sure my savings don't disappear.

I'm planning on giving her about $20,000 so she can have a "safety cushion." Basically it will be enough for her to furnish her new place, pay the security deposit, and then maybe take 2 really nice vacations or something. I don't want it too low that she'll feel insluted by it, but I also want to make sure I have enough to survive as well.

Finally, assumptions of infidelity?

Thanks if you don't want to answer any of these no pressure. Hang in there and thanks for sharing.

I will answer this question as honestly as I can, as there's no real point in lying anymore.

After we'd been married for 2 years, we were living together in an apartmet in Beijing. Her immigration interview was scheduled and we were just waiting it out. I was teaching English at one of the highest-paying schools in the city, meaning the students paid a lot to be there and were mainly upper-class. There was a Korean girl in one of my classes that was always eyeing me. Later on, she asked me if I wanted to learn some Korean. My wife was also Korean (ethnically Korean, born in China... another point on which I felt we connected; being an ethnic minority), so I thought it would be good to learn Korean so I could suprise my in-laws the next time I went there. It really did start out with good intentions, but, well, you probably already know where it ended up.

We would meet up at Starbucks, I would bring my Korean books, we'd sit and learn. It was fun for me, and I kept going back home and surprising my wife with the new phrases I learned. After a while, she got suspicious of my student's motives, and honestly I didn't see what she was so worried about; I was learning Korean so I could speak with her parents better. (My wife could understand Korean when listening, but couldn't speak, read, or write it, so she couldn't teach me) I tried to have them get along; I invited them both to the same events, I tried to get them to talk to each other... but nothing could break through my wife's suspicions.

Well, one night we had a teacher-student event where she was there, all the other teachers, and a few other students(my wife didn't go). We were drinking beer and playing pool. She lived in the same direction as me, so we decided to share a taxi and she would drop me off first. She came on to me pretty hard, and we were making out in the taxi on the way back home. I kind of had a sinking feeling in my heart like, "Oh, god, what have I started?"

To make this story manageable, I'll say that for the next few months, we (my student and I) snuck away during lunch breaks or after work, for make-out sessions. We never had sex. It really did a number on my emotions. I felt like a monster, and then vowed to devote myself to my wife from that point forward. She was too good of a woman for me to do anything like that to, and I didn't want to become "that guy."

Anyways, I hope this answers your questions. Please feel free to ask follow-up questions, or other questions you may have. This is helping me a lot.

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

You radically altered your life including giving up a (admittedly a low paying) job that you presumably enjoyed, enrolling in law school, and using your dead father's money to buy a house. SHE SHOULD HAVE MADE HER INTENTIONS A LITTLE CLEARER. Go to law school, bro, and fight tooth and nail for every thing you can get. She seriously did a number and if some bitch did that to me I know I'd be jaded for a long time. I'm sure Mr. Big Dick will have a bit to say on this matter since he has been through this sort of thing.

Thanks for the reply, PEskeptic. But please try to refrain from bad language. Anger tends to taint everything a different color, and clouds the truth.

Even though anger is one of the stages of grief (and that's what I think I'm going through right now: grieving the loss of a relationship), I don't think it's one that I should emphasize. Right now I feel like I keep going back and forth between anger, relief, and depression.

I've noticed that when I'm in an "anger" stage, everything seems really one-sided; I tend to consciously ignore any reason or logic from any other point of view. I think, for me at least, I will be at peace with what happened if I accept the entire truth, which means that I have to respect that her point of view is also correct, and try to come to a conclusion as to how both her perspective and mine can both be correct at the same time.

Relief comes when I feel like I can finally work on some of these issues on my own without the hassle of having to deal with another person in the mix.

Depression comes out of the despair and helplessness that the last 9 years of my life have gone to waste and there's nothing I can really do about it.

[scissorCock Member Find all posts View Profile Close scissorCock]

First, thanks for responding, and for asking questions. I think this is what I need; I need someone to help me flesh out my thoughts and clarify my feelings.

To answer this first question, the pressure built up over the 2 years we were trying to conceive. As time went by, we started adding more and more things. For example, when we first started trying to conceive, there were no pills, no temp readings, no baby's room. The only thing we did was mark the first day of her period on the calendar. Eventually, (after a few months) we added the prenatal pills at the advice of a doctor, and started the temp readings about a year and a half into it. By that point we were both getting pretty frustrated.



She has always asserted that she feels I will be successful at whatever I do, that I will be a great father, and she thinks I'm on my way to being very, very rich. She said, over the years we've been together, that she will support me no matter what I decide to do. She was very supportive of me when I told her I wanted to start a kungfu school. She was also supportive when I told her I wanted to enroll in law school. This is what confuses me so much about this, though; even though she says all this, she has issues with how I invested the money, that I started law school, and that I'm not prepared to be a father.



I tried some of those herbal pills that I found online. Didn't work, obviously. As my progress log states, though, I was very sensitive about the subject and didn't seek out any professional help. That was one of my main mistakes on this issue, and one I hope to fix with PE and posting on these forums. Hopefully posting here will make me more comfortable with talking about sex, and how to talk about it, so I can avoid this problem in my next relationship.



We qualified for the loan using her income alone. My income was difficult to prove since I was self-employed, and I had a lot of deductions that reduced my reported income to nearly nothing (which was a good thing because I paid hardly any tax... it's what my accountant told me to do). If she goes off on her own, she will be able to support herself with her monthly income alone. For me, I will be hard-pressed to make ends meet since I don't have a job. I will have to do some passive-income, cashflow investing to make sure my savings don't disappear.

I'm planning on giving her about $20,000 so she can have a "safety cushion." Basically it will be enough for her to furnish her new place, pay the security deposit, and then maybe take 2 really nice vacations or something. I don't want it too low that she'll feel insluted by it, but I also want to make sure I have enough to survive as well.



I will answer this question as honestly as I can, as there's no real point in lying anymore.

After we'd been married for 2 years, we were living together in an apartmet in Beijing. Her immigration interview was scheduled and we were just waiting it out. I was teaching English at one of the highest-paying schools in the city, meaning the students paid a lot to be there and were mainly upper-class. There was a Korean girl in one of my classes that was always eyeing me. Later on, she asked me if I wanted to learn some Korean. My wife was also Korean (ethnically Korean, born in China... another point on which I felt we connected; being an ethnic minority), so I thought it would be good to learn Korean so I could suprise my in-laws the next time I went there. It really did start out with good intentions, but, well, you probably already know where it ended up.

We would meet up at Starbucks, I would bring my Korean books, we'd sit and learn. It was fun for me, and I kept going back home and surprising my wife with the new phrases I learned. After a while, she got suspicious of my student's motives, and honestly I didn't see what she was so worried about; I was learning Korean so I could speak with her parents better. (My wife could understand Korean when listening, but couldn't speak, read, or write it, so she couldn't teach me) I tried to have them get along; I invited them both to the same events, I tried to get them to talk to each other... but nothing could break through my wife's suspicions.

Well, one night we had a teacher-student event where she was there, all the other teachers, and a few other students(my wife didn't go). We were drinking beer and playing pool. She lived in the same direction as me, so we decided to share a taxi and she would drop me off first. She came on to me pretty hard, and we were making out in the taxi on the way back home. I kind of had a sinking feeling in my heart like, "Oh, god, what have I started?"

To make this story manageable, I'll say that for the next few months, we (my student and I) snuck away during lunch breaks or after work, for make-out sessions. We never had sex. It really did a number on my emotions. I felt like a monster, and then vowed to devote myself to my wife from that point forward. She was too good of a woman for me to do anything like that to, and I didn't want to become "that guy."

Anyways, I hope this answers your questions. Please feel free to ask follow-up questions, or other questions you may have. This is helping me a lot.

I appreciate your honesty and for the quick reply. I find relationships fascinating once they are on the rocks.

Ok, do you think there is any hope in stopping this divorce from happening? Could you tell your wife, "hey lets not worry about the kid thing right now. We have been together for many years. I love you. The last thing I want to do is watch you go. Therefore, I will put my ambitions of wanting a child on hold".

I mean what is more important to you? Her ( she seems loyal and caring, maybe a bit selfish) or offspring with another lady that you have to start all over again with.

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

I feel for you. I am also going through a divorce right now. When I read your post I see something you may not. Every time she was saying yall were not ready, yall needed this, it meant she was not ready. I am not trying to stereotype but is not being submissive and passive a quality of Asian women. She may not have had the "voice" or the nerve to tell you your goals were not the same. This is not to say it is your fault in any way. It was a failure to communicate properly and fault can be had on each side.
On the positive side you should be thankful you have not had children yet. I have been in two mariages and both times we had children and the woman decided she wasn't ready to be a mother after the fact. Now it sounds like you would be a great father on your own but for the kids sake it is best that you solved this now.
Just think you are still young, working on a law degree, and already financially in a strong position. You should be very proud of yourself and in the future you will find a woman who would love to have children with you. I think you will find that your qualities are very attractive to women.
Finally, use this time to try and solve your ED issue. I am not familiar with your story but it sounds like you need to see a specialist. I suffer from premature ejaculation so I can relate to how it makes you feel and the doubts it puts in your mind about your significant other, or even future relationships. However I hope that you will be able to solve this issue. There are various methods for solving ED and I believe you will find one that works for you.
I wish you luck and the only advice I can give you about dealing with the emotional pain is stay busy. Pour yourself into your studies, and take back up your taekwondo or whichever martial arts field it was you mentioned. This time is about doing what makes you happy. When you get there and have healed you will be in a great position to move forward with your life and your goal of having children.

Hey, MechanicJT, thanks for replying. Yes, I also feel that communication was a big problem between us. However, one thing that I keep going through in my head was, when I met Angela (my wife... I think I'll just use her name from now on), she struck me as different from the other Chinese girls.

She was fierce and fearless; she didn't care what anyone else thought of her. If she didn't like you, there was no way you wouldn't know it. This is who I knew her as before we started dating, and also when we first started going out. She knew who she was, and she wasn't afraid to show it.

Somehow when we got married, all the rules changed. Marrying her took me out of the "friend" sphere and put me in the closer "family" sphere for her. She explained to me recently that this caused her to feel that she needed to "sacrifice" what she wanted to make me happy, then she hid the fact that she was hurt by the things she had to sacrifice. So basically I was hurting her but I didn't know it; she kept the smile on her face. But, at the same time, I had come to know her as being confident and fearless (and for the most part, she still was the same old Angela around other friends, just not with me), so I assumed that she was telling me the truth when she said things like:
"My happiness is your happiness."
"Do whatever you want, so long as you're happy, I'll support you."

Anyways, yes, I do realize that we are lucky to have gotten this "out of the way" so to speak, before we had kids. I mean, who knows what effect that would have on her, but we don't have child support or custody issues to deal with. The divorce should be able to go smoothly.

[MrBigDick Retired ModeratorPEGym Hero Find all posts View Profile Close MrBigDick]

First off, I'm sorry to hear about this. Divorce isn't fun, trust me, been there, done that.

It sounds to me, based on the excuses she gave you, that she merely changed her mind over the years and has opted not to have kids. I also think that she may have felt that the marriage wasn't going to work, hence the creation of distance and her changing her mind about kids.

I had a similar situation which is why I'm raising the above concerns. I've been divorced for going on 7 years now. For my ex and myself, our issue was a house. I wanted this classic car real bad and my then wife told me I couldn't have this car until we bought a house. Well, every house we looked at was too small, too cold, too bad a neighborhood, too small a backyard, too this, too that............it was ALWAYS something. Well, when we divorced, she divulged why she didn't want to buy a house with me was because she knew even at that time that things between us weren't going to work out.

While the topic at the center of the divorce might be different (you having kids, me getting a house/car), the excuses were the same.

For whatever reason, she has it fixated that you two aren't going to work out and she just doesn't want to have kids. The bad thing is that usually people come to these decisions BEFORE they get married. In your case, you've already tied the matrimonial knot and now have to go through the divorce process, which sucks.

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

I appreciate your honesty and for the quick reply. I find relationships fascinating once they are on the rocks.

Ok, do you think there is any hope in stopping this divorce from happening? Could you tell your wife, "hey lets not worry about the kid thing right now. We have been together for many years. I love you. The last thing I want to do is watch you go. Therefore, I will put my ambitions of wanting a child on hold".

I mean what is more important to you? Her ( she seems loyal and caring, maybe a bit selfish) or offspring with another lady that you have to start all over again with.

Yes, during the time between when the first big argument began (November) and when we decided to get divorced (January), I had been changing my mindset to try to accept what life would be like without kids. In January, I basically told her that I was ok with not having kids any more. She responded that she didn't want me to change, especially for me to give up something that was so important to me.

I was confused by this answer, because my response was that this issue forced me to weigh the importance between having kids, or staying with Angela, and after weighing them I came to the conclusion that staying together was more important. Life without kids could be just as rewarding. I pride myself on my ability to adapt and change my life goals when needed, and to listen to reason.

My logical mind was thinking, "If she doesn't want to be with me if I want kids, and she doesn't want to be with me without kids, then the real issue is that she just doesn't want to be with me. Kids aren't an issue at all."

She said that if I give up my dream of having kids, she would feel really guilty. The problem is, I've pretty much already given it up. This leads to another fundamental difference between our personalities: she sees people as unchanging; we stay the same no matter what. I see people as changing all the time; the more dramatic and painful the experience, the greater the change. (this leads to another big difference in our behaviors: I tend to charge into difficult situations and confront fears and challenges; she tends to skirt around them and avoid them)

Our argument over kids was so dramatic and painful for me that it really made me question my core values, and in response, I changed them. I didn't understand how she felt that something like this wouldn't change me. At the same time, she couldn't understand how this kind of really quick change could be permanent at all; her argument was that I still had the desire to have kids, but was suppressing it out of fear of her leaving me.

I did try to tell her that we didn't need to have kids right now. Her response was that she didn't want to have kids, ever. Basically, after talking to her between January and now, I've come to the conclusion that she made up her mind long ago, and she wasn't changing her mind; she was just trying to make clear to me the path she was on and where she was going.

Although, she never communicated it as such, so I kept trying to convince her, unsuccessfully, for months and months on end. Painful.

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

First off, I'm sorry to hear about this. Divorce isn't fun, trust me, been there, done that.

It sounds to me, based on the excuses she gave you, that she merely changed her mind over the years and has opted not to have kids. I also think that she may have felt that the marriage wasn't going to work, hence the creation of distance and her changing her mind about kids.

I had a similar situation which is why I'm raising the above concerns. I've been divorced for going on 7 years now. For my ex and myself, our issue was a house. I wanted this classic car real bad and my then wife told me I couldn't have this car until we bought a house. Well, every house we looked at was too small, too cold, too bad a neighborhood, too small a backyard, too this, too that............it was ALWAYS something. Well, when we divorced, she divulged why she didn't want to buy a house with me was because she knew even at that time that things between us weren't going to work out.

While the topic at the center of the divorce might be different (you having kids, me getting a house/car), the excuses were the same.

For whatever reason, she has it fixated that you two aren't going to work out and she just doesn't want to have kids. The bad thing is that usually people come to these decisions BEFORE they get married. In your case, you've already tied the matrimonial knot and now have to go through the divorce process, which sucks.

Thanks, MBD, this actually puts a fresh new perspective on things for me.

[Qarzan Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Qarzan]

You radically altered your life including giving up a (admittedly a low paying) job that you presumably enjoyed, enrolling in law school, and using your dead father's money to buy a house. SHE SHOULD HAVE MADE HER INTENTIONS A LITTLE CLEARER. Go to law school, bro, and fight tooth and nail for every thing you can get. She seriously did a number and if some bitch did that to me I know I'd be jaded for a long time. I'm sure Mr. Big Dick will have a bit to say on this matter since he has been through this sort of thing.

Hey man, thought I'd actually reply to your post this time.

It's true, I really liked teaching kungfu to preschoolers. It gave me a sense that I had a good influence on a lot of kids' lives, and at a time that they wouldn't even be aware of it. I felt like I had a sense of importance, and I loved how rewarding it felt when a student excelled.

But, to say that I enrolled in law school solely because of my wife's demand would be inaccurate. I had gotten frustrated with how other kungfu masters didn't cooperate with each other; they were too busy trying to "take each other down." This is how Taekwondo and Karate became so much more popular: they all started to cooperate in order to promote the industry, which resulted in a healthier industry. I felt that, as long as I was an instructor and ran my own school, the other schools and instructors would see me as competition, and not cooperate with me. I decided to leave the industry and return when I was filthy stinking rich.

Basically, I would hold funds out as grants to schools who met certain standards of instruction and instructor training. Schools would be more likely to take a grant from a third-party philantropist than from a competing school. After I got my non-profit funds up to $12M, I would set up a scholarship fund and hold an annual tournament, the winner of which would get a 4-year full scholarship to the university of their choice, as long as they maintained a certain GPA. I thought that this would really inject a lot of interest in the kungfu industry.

It was a combination of the above plan, plus her request, that made me enroll in law school.

I will still continue in law school, she is letting me keep the house, so at least I can hit the ground running once I do find the right girl.